River class Patrol vessels..

[FMP]

Not sure how far offshore the AW139s (or EC135s) can operate. Would it be a certification issue?

They would need to be able to locate the vessel (radar/FLIR ?) communicate with it (should be possible with SINCGARS but that is short range), land on it (only on calm seas due to lack of harpoon etc), possibly divert if they can't land (so vessel would have to be within a radius of land) and the ditch (flotation gear, EPRIB etc).

For HIFR, all the above except instead of landing you need access to the aircraft fuel system in flight (it has to be capable of it), at the sliding door and on the winch side.

Cheers DeV. Have been asking for some AC type to come back with an answer but as yet no response. Thinking just about the 139's though. Steel on steel never a good idea unless you throw a net over the deck.

[FMP]

To allow a heli to land on what will inevitably be a minimum possible size deck you will need some facility to stop said heli sliding off the deck once it does land.

Ah sure even in this day and age you cant beat good old chocks and strops, along with a bit of white man magic .

[na grohmiti]

Ah sure even in this day and age you cant beat good old chocks and strops, along with a bit of white man magic .

Harpoon is in use there, based on the signals the man with the bats is giving. What do you recon Murph?

[na grohmiti]

That would have been the "Along the lines of" Or "Words to that effect" part of my statement.

Store fuel.

Just in case.

Jerri cans.

Elements for a joke. If you cant take one. My apologies.

I can take a joke.
There wasn't one.
I can also take an apology. Thank you.

[na grohmiti]

I understand perfectly well what were talking about.



Recovery and launch requires no ship based equipment or facilities.

Not my words mate. Would not harpoon grid and / or bear trap fall under ship based equipment?

Clearly so the plan is that they expect the heli to land and take off when the ship is tied up at the quayside. Because even the most basic of ship based equipment would be a net on the deck and chocks for the wheels.

[FMP]

I'm making no such assumptions.

Just working with the facts presented. I'm pretty sure chocks and net when detailing a requirement for a vessel are probably up there with knives forks and spoons for the galley. But bits of kit fitted to the deck during construction, slightly different don't you think.

Again I'm in no way saying that what DeV posted is the end of it. It will be a dated document by the time a seriously look at the EPV comes around and no doubt the requirements will change if it ever gets to tender stage. But, working with what has been presented and looking at kit available (139 for instance) surely to ask questions based on available evidence and not conjecture is the right thing to do. If that's what the NS get, what have we available to work with it?

Best practice would suggest some form of heli handling system would be fitted. However it was not mentioned. I'm only working with the facts and it simply states "Recovery and launch requires no ship based equipment or facilities". Its vague to say the least but that's what it says. I'm not going to presume they meant this or that or not including etc. etc.

[FMP]

I can take a joke.
There wasn't one.
I can also take an apology. Thank you.

No worries, I have a wayward sense or humour. Not to everyone's taste mind.

[FMP]

Harpoon is in use there, based on the signals the man with the bats is giving. What do you recon Murph?

That would be the white man magic I was on about .

[DeV]

I'm making no such assumptions.

Just working with the facts presented. I'm pretty sure chocks and net when detailing a requirement for a vessel are probably up there with knives forks and spoons for the galley. But bits of kit fitted to the deck during construction, slightly different don't you think.

Again I'm in no way saying that what DeV posted is the end of it. It will be a dated document by the time a seriously look at the EPV comes around and no doubt the requirements will change if it ever gets to tender stage. But, working with what has been presented and looking at kit available (139 for instance) surely to ask questions based on available evidence and not conjecture is the right thing to do. If that's what the NS get, what have we available to work with it?

Best practice would suggest some form of heli handling system would be fitted. However it was not mentioned. I'm only working with the facts and it simply states "Recovery and launch requires no ship based equipment or facilities". Its vague to say the least but that's what it says. I'm not going to presume they meant this or that or not including etc. etc.

It isn't vague.
Arguably a grid could be fitted (within the requirements) but no current aircraft has the harpoon system.
Beartrap/RAST is definitely out
Landing lights or any kind of guidance system are also out

Most of those can only be used up to SS6 anyway

[hptmurphy]

what wind conditions would have to be present before a heli would be decked

Read it again, the ships can turn into wind reducing that crosswind component that would effect a helo, you are now looking at a specific wind speed for a specific helo. Its not a ship rating.

And lots and lots of other things related to land, sea and air operation

As are others..including myself both at sea and as a Operations officer at a airport that often handled SAR flights ....

Export no....but have dealt with the specifics being discussed first hand..hence the photos!

[hptmurphy]

Harpoon is in use there, based on the signals the man with the bats is giving. What do you recon Murph?

Yup.


Even with all the ties downs, chocks etc... the harpoon is the primary locking mechanism.

[FMP]

Yup.


Even with all the ties downs, chocks etc... the harpoon is the primary locking mechanism.

White man magic!

[FMP]

Right re-post time. Its not a difficult one gents so why are we all talking about harpoons and turning into the wind, why do you keep showing me pictures of helis on ships etc. and telling me I don't understand harpoons and bearclaws.

Perhaps a bit of clearing up. Maybe its my bad English.

There are no ships in the NS that can land helis. Correct?

The NS will be using UAV's. Correct?

The AC and the CG have helis. Correct?

There will possibly be joint NS, AC, CG op's in the future. SAR for instance. Correct?

Decked / grounded = not able to fly, or not able to operate. Decked in the UAV's case because it will work of a ship, grounded in the helis case because it will work off land. However I personaly use the phrase "Decked" in all dealings with aircraft so hope it does not cause a bit of confusion .

Murph thank you for the comments. However that is not what I asked. I asked by way of doing a comparison, what wind conditions would have to be present before a heli would be decked / grounded verses a UAV being decked / grounded? Their inability to fly. Which asset would have to go back in its box first? Its a simple enough question. A specific enough question. Which asset do you lose first due to wind conditions.

Lick your finger, stick it in the air and "Na, too windy, put it back in the box".

Its in relation to various comments about assets not being available due to the weather. It got me thinking? Surely a UAV asset would be more susceptible to wind conditions compared to an asset like a Heli. Be they land or ship based. The NS does not have ship based helis. That is a fact. It is going to use ship based UAV's for surveillance etc. That is a fact. So in SAR mode it's the CG helis that will be out and about doing their bit and the NS UAV up and about doing its bit. Wind picks up,,,,,which one goes home first? Limitations on kit and therefore operations in various conditions when your putting all the kit / eggs in one basket, that's what I'm thinking about.

Not pitching and rolling Murph because we don't have any ship based helis or ships that can work with Helis so that side of things is irrelevant. For the time being. Until the EPV arrives, god willing.

I am more than aware of sea states and how it effects the thing your trying to land on, fully aware of turning into the wind, understand pitch and roll and have done for 25 odd years. And lots and lots of other things related to land, sea and air operations. An expert, NO! Not even close. Experienced, YES. Done it all, NO. Still at it, YES.

So in the last 24 hours I have been accused of Ranting. Trooling. Being out of my depth. Dismissive. Being crankey. Anything else I have missed? If you don't get my point or understand the question, do the grown up thing and ask me to rephrase / repeat in slow time. Leave the name calling for the playground shall we.

[hptmurphy]

White man magic!

Blue man magic......Deck crew wore blue vest with blue helmets


White man does the bats....White overalls/yellow vest with yellow helmet( Red HH suit worn in case it went pear shaped and someone went over the side

Red man does the fuel! Red vest with Red Helmet

Guys in red HH suits they drove the boat that carried the diver that pulled the crew from the helo when it hit the water.

[hptmurphy]

why do you keep showing me pictures of helis on ships etc

One picture says a thousand words.

Anyway I'm letting this one go enough has been said, it ain't going to happen with Aw139s or P60s.....