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  • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
    On a slightly related note, the RN is planning to upgrade its Legacy 20mm Oerlikon/GAM-B01, GCM-AO3 Twin 30mm and Oerlikon 30mm cannon to 30mm Chain gun on the DS30M mk 2 platform, as seen on the more recent River Batch 2s. This uses the 30MM Mk 44 Bushmaster cannon, which is in use elsewhere in the Irish Defence Forces. Perhaps we could consider similar when it's time for the Rhino to go? Seems suitable given where the Rhino are currently mounted on the P50s and P60s.
    https://www.navylookout.com/the-all-...-gun-in-focus/
    Also, the Dutch Navy are to retire the Goalkeeper CIWS from service by 2025, replacing it with RIM116 RAM combined with DART guided projectile fired from an OTO Melara 76mm.
    Much bigger and heavier foot print I’d say

    Comment


    • Originally posted by DeV View Post
      Much bigger and heavier foot print I’d say
      No more so than any automated replacement, and HPT will tell stories about the force on the deck of the old Oerlikon 20mm. It's mounted on GRP minehunters and patrol vessels so it should be fine....
      German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
      German 2: Private? I am a general!
      German 1: That is the bad news.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by DeV View Post
        Much bigger and heavier foot print I’d say
        In general the deck takes the weight of the gun and its mounting. Ship decks are immensely strong taking the weights of all superstructure, boats, cranes, masts, casings etc. The bigger the weapon the larger, in spread, the bolt on gun ring/foundation. local strength can be added. The weapon discharge forces are allowed for within the gun mechanisms such as recoil and absorption design. The bigger problem for any upgrading , renewal, or replacement is bringing it from concept to implementation. The problem is trying to identify the Boss/ policy maker with speedy decision making for timely responses. We drag on, and on occasion roles get reversed, and big ticket items appear due to a politically driven imperative producing role changing ships and aircraft. To be honest we are a PDF of circumstances and with circumstances constantly changing, we lose sight of the role of any Defence Forces , and struggle to meet contingencies from a depleted locker of minimised responses. If the role is catered for adequately then response for all contingences becomes routine.
        Last edited by ancientmariner; 22 January 2021, 10:11.

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        • [QUOTE=DeV;484452]One of the P60s went to an arms show and the left went mad



          But of little use for anything but training

          https://www.atlas-elektronik.com/new...oyal-navy.html


          More than 80% of sea training and ship system and characteristics training HAS to be carried out at sea. Initial training should be carried out on vessels designed for taking a bit of rough handling. All of our training is carried out on ships of high value. There is a burden placed on the shoulders of first time Captains that could be ameliorated by having smaller workhorse vessels to practice on. Other European Navies have scores of smaller craft for training and local tasking giving opportunity for step by step training, while we have NO training craft. I hope the point is taken up by the COD and the historic destruction of skills lost in ASW, MCM, FDO, HCO, and other specialisations cast away as ships come and go.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Egbeygia View Post
            I can assure you that the Irish Coastguard does have a surface picture, fed from a number of sources and monitored at all times. Vessels acting on contravention of the Rules, displaying incorrect Nav Status for instance, are contacted, as are vessels at anchor outside port limits. I'm unsure as to why you find it necessary to fault those involved in a successfully concluded rescue other than to serve a very narrow agenda in support of the NS,which I can assure you at this moment in time is a pale imitation of the Service you were a member of.
            There is an evident weakness in the Surface picture as it requires the active co-operation of the traffic in your area of observation. The Safhaven Marine video recently of the grounded MV Alta, starting to break-up in stormy wave action, shows that for more than a week, we were unaware of a drifting ,unlit vessel, off our coast. Any other vessel could have run full tilt into the derelict with major consequences. VTS with radar or MPA's with tracking and analysis could have spotted her before grounding.
            I accept that the USCG and RN are also culpable for allowing her to become derelict and later continuing to remain derelict. Our Surface picture is not interactive enough as we are missing surface scan by radar.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
              There is an evident weakness in the Surface picture as it requires the active co-operation of the traffic in your area of observation. The Safhaven Marine video recently of the grounded MV Alta, starting to break-up in stormy wave action, shows that for more than a week, we were unaware of a drifting ,unlit vessel, off our coast. Any other vessel could have run full tilt into the derelict with major consequences. VTS with radar or MPA's with tracking and analysis could have spotted her before grounding.
              I accept that the USCG and RN are also culpable for allowing her to become derelict and later continuing to remain derelict. Our Surface picture is not interactive enough as we are missing surface scan by radar.
              Could the proposed installation of floating wind turbines off the SW coast provide a platform for Radar, extending our view off our most exposed, busy but remote coast? It's a shame that with the demise of Kinsale Alpha and Bravo we lose an AIS receiver.
              German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
              German 2: Private? I am a general!
              German 1: That is the bad news.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                Could the proposed installation of floating wind turbines off the SW coast provide a platform for Radar, extending our view off our most exposed, busy but remote coast? It's a shame that with the demise of Kinsale Alpha and Bravo we lose an AIS receiver.
                Offshore wind turbines are a whole new area of development. They are fixed in water of less than 60metres depth but require a triple legged foundation instead of a mono pole type. Over 60 metres they are floating on anchors with certain vulnerabilities. The latter will require positional monitoring equipment in case of storm or collision movement. VTS radar could be installed on headlands with central monitoring stations per coastal sector. The French coast from Le Havre to the Spanish Coast is covered by coastal radar. If the radar at Roches point was operating it would have picked up ALTA.

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                • Wind turbines also can have a negative effect on radar

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                  • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                    Wind turbines also can have a negative effect on radar
                    Most likely and more so on anchored platforms with blades on a horizontal axis to reduce windage plus the effects of platform oscillations.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                      There is an evident weakness in the Surface picture as it requires the active co-operation of the traffic in your area of observation. The Safhaven Marine video recently of the grounded MV Alta, starting to break-up in stormy wave action, shows that for more than a week, we were unaware of a drifting ,unlit vessel, off our coast. Any other vessel could have run full tilt into the derelict with major consequences. VTS with radar or MPA's with tracking and analysis could have spotted her before grounding.
                      I accept that the USCG and RN are also culpable for allowing her to become derelict and later continuing to remain derelict. Our Surface picture is not interactive enough as we are missing surface scan by radar.
                      The Marine Casualty Investigation Branch (MCIB) wants" a working group to explore the risks and potential costs to the State presented by derelict ships entering Irish waters and coming ashore in Ireland. it should make proposals for means to identify, track, monitor and interdict derelict ships before they endanger other ships and seafarers". It also struck me that the Irish Lights Commissioners had a Surface scan radar at the look out at Roches Point which was discontinued when they de-manned and sold the house to a retired mariner. I know it is fortuitous, but that radar would have seen ALTA. We definitely need better surveillance and strict speed and course monitoring of all surface vessels and query those not underway as to condition.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                        The Marine Casualty Investigation Branch (MCIB) wants" a working group to explore the risks and potential costs to the State presented by derelict ships entering Irish waters and coming ashore in Ireland. it should make proposals for means to identify, track, monitor and interdict derelict ships before they endanger other ships and seafarers". It also struck me that the Irish Lights Commissioners had a Surface scan radar at the look out at Roches Point which was discontinued when they de-manned and sold the house to a retired mariner. I know it is fortuitous, but that radar would have seen ALTA. We definitely need better surveillance and strict speed and course monitoring of all surface vessels and query those not underway as to condition.
                        I have being liaising with MCIB for the last 2 years in relation to an accident and I have never met a more incompetent statutory authority in this country. 2 of the 5 part time board members have had to resign due to conflict of interest. The state had so much time to respond to this derelict ship but instead of reacting to the threat, they just sat back and watched. Appalling reaction to a clear environmental threat.
                        Last edited by ibenji; 4 March 2021, 23:35.

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                        • For anyone interested in the MCIB, this is of interest. Enlightening reading.

                          Shows the complete and utter failure of government to govern properly and abide by EU Legislation.

                          Joint Oireachtas Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport
                          General Scheme of the Merchant Shipping (Investigation of Marine Casualties) (Amendment) Bill 2020: Discussion

                          https://www.kildarestreet.com/commit...83&s=MCIB#g789

                          Mr. Michael Kingston:

                          The first thing I would say is that we do not need another review. We already have the 1998 review, which was clear in its recommendations on what is needed. We need an independent investigative unit with competence. For whatever reason, the end of the 1998 report went against itself. It was clear following the Betelgeuse tragedy in 1979 that we needed to decouple the regulator from the investigation system.

                          Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
                          As outlined in my letter of 19 January 2021, I consider that the time is now opportune to undertake a fundamental review of the structures in place for marine accident investigations. This review will be carried out by an independent expert and concluded over the coming months.

                          Timmy Dooley (Fianna Fail)
                          I recognise and respect the Minister's point on the review, but those of us who have had the honour and privilege to serve around these Houses for a number of years are well used to departmental speak. I am not accusing the Minister of it at all; he is new to this Department. Departmental speak when it relates to a review is, effectively, the long finger and to move on.

                          Last edited by TangoSierra; 5 March 2021, 08:33.

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                          • Originally posted by ibenji View Post
                            I have being liaising with MCIB for the last 2 years in relation to an accident and I have never met a more incompetent statutory authority in this country. 2 of the 5 part time board members have had to resign due to conflict of interest. The state had so much time to respond to this derelict ship but instead of reacting to the threat, they just sat back and watched. Appalling reaction to a clear environmental threat.
                            Don't know about composition or otherwise of MCIB. Our National response was negative as we didn't know it was there for more than a week, drifting in shipping lanes, until it turned up on our doorstep, courtesy of the USCG and RN. For more than a year that vessel was towable having weathered a hurricane and Storm Denis. Some effort should have been triggered to find her and remove her .

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                              Don't know about composition or otherwise of MCIB. Our National response was negative as we didn't know it was there for more than a week, drifting in shipping lanes, until it turned up on our doorstep, courtesy of the USCG and RN. For more than a year that vessel was towable having weathered a hurricane and Storm Denis. Some effort should have been triggered to find her and remove her .
                              MV ALTA was possibly detected on the 13FEB, 14FEB, 15FEB and obviously confirmed detection on the 16FEB by several sensors available to Ireland through the EU and commercial operators.

                              Just no one was looking at the screen and investigating the possible detections.

                              Here's what a 80m vessel looks like on 14FEB2020



                              Here's what MV ALTA looks like on the rocks at Ballycotton on 17FEB20

                              Click image for larger version

Name:	MV ALTA Sentinel-1 17FEB20.JPG
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                              Last edited by TangoSierra; 5 March 2021, 08:57.

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                              • Originally posted by TangoSierra View Post
                                MV ALTA was possibly detected on the 13FEB, 14FEB, 15FEB and obviously confirmed detection on the 16FEB by several sensors available to Ireland through the EU and commercial operators.

                                Just no one was looking at the screen and investigating the possible detections.

                                Here's what a 80m vessel looks like on 14FEB2020

                                [ATTACH]8891[/ATTACH]

                                Here's what MV ALTA looks like on the rocks at Ballycotton on 17FEB20

                                [ATTACH]8892[/ATTACH]
                                The only way Alta could have been detected was by visual or radar tracking. She was a "Dead" ship electronically , so without visual report or coastal radar, or a tracking ship radar, she remained missing until she went ashore.

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