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  • Originally posted by TangoSierra View Post
    Ireland does not need to buy the data. It is provided free of charge for being an EU member state (i.e we pay into the EU, this is one of the services in return)
    There remains a difficulty between a statement here that the vessel was seen by an EU entity ( maybe EMSA ), more than once, and MCIB saying that the EU system is AIS, LRIT, and certain satellite based inputs but is not discriminate enough to track a " silent" vessel. We need to see the free information.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
      There remains a difficulty between a statement here that the vessel was seen by an EU entity ( maybe EMSA ), more than once, and MCIB saying that the EU system is AIS, LRIT, and certain satellite based inputs but is not discriminate enough to track a " silent" vessel. We need to see the free information.
      It was seen by satellite but couldn’t be tracked due to lack of electronic systems on board. I’m sure that if requested the satellites could track it.


      Integrate it into the Recognised Maritime Picture

      This kind of thing is going to happen when you have too many agencies in too many different geographical areas.

      Imagine if IRCG had closed Malin and Valentia MRSC’s and the NS was given the personnel, facilities and equipment to allow the FMC to be used for all Naval Ops including SAR (as a turnkey back up MRSC to Dublin)???

      Last edited by DeV; 9 March 2021, 12:03.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by DeV View Post
        It was seen by satellite but couldn’t be tracked due to lack of electronic systems on board. I’m sure that if requested the satellites could track it.


        Integrate it into the Recognised Maritime Picture

        This kind of thing is going to happen when you have too many agencies in too many different geographical areas.

        Imagine if IRCG had closed Malin and Valentia MRSC’s and the NS was given the personnel, facilities and equipment to allow the FMC to be used for all Naval Ops including SAR (as a turnkey back up MRSC to Dublin)???

        http://dttas.old.gov.ie/sites/defaul...ew-12-2-13.pdf
        The problem as I see it, is that there is a statement within these posts that ALTA was seen and identified many days before coming ashore by a known agency. We need to know what was actually seen, who or what saw it, and what did they do with the information. As regards the ICG review on a VFM basis it was not setting out to make the SAR/MRCC/CRS system work better and cover all aspects rather how to do it at a lesser cost. I was an MRCC officer in 1960/70's when the INS ran the system we did it as a normal part of our DCO duties. It was handed over then to ATC Shannon within the long range set-up at Euro-Control. I ran the hand over course and embedded with their team for a couple of weeks. Since then it has shifted to it's current structure and maybe needs more assets and technology. You can over task Agencies with responsibilities that ultimately are not achievable due to lack of technical means.

        Comment


        • Fact 1: With 90% confidence, a "dark vessel" (No AIS, VMS, LRIT etc) of 77m length was detected and classified as being a ship on 10MAY2020, 204nm south west of Ireland in the middle of Storm Denis. This information was available to several state agencies and EU Member States within 6 hours of the detection event. It was presented on a map with time and coordinates. It is unknown if anyone from any agency looked at or did anything with the information.

          Fact 2: With 90% confidence, a "dark vessel" of unknown length was detected and classified as being a ship on 14FEB2020, 63nm south of Ireland. Again in the middle of Storm Denis. The distance between the detections on 10MAY2020 and 14FEB2020 was almost exactly the same as a dirft/leeway calculation for a 77m Coastal Freighter. It is unknown if anyone from any agency looked at or did anything with the information.

          Fact 3: With 90% confidence, a "dark vessel" of unknown length was detected and classified as being a ship on 15FEB2020, 30nm south of Ireland. Again in the middle of Storm Denis. The distances between the detections on 10MAY2020, 14FEB2020 and 15FEB2020 was almost exactly the same as a drift/leeway calculation for a 77m Coastal Freighter. It is unknown if anyone from any agency looked at or did anything with the information.

          Fact 4: There was significantly less maritime traffic in the area due to Storm Denis. However on 15FEB2020, there was potentially three vessels within 15nm of the "dark vessel". It is unknown if anyone from any agency looked at or did anything with the information.

          Fact 5: There was a large oil carrying vessel potentially within 3nm of the "dark vessel" with a potential head on closing speed of 8kts. At night. In extremely poor visibility. With significant wave height of 10m. It is unknown if anyone from any agency looked at or did anything with the information.

          Fact 6: The same system that detected the "dark vessel" or "dark Vessels" on 10FEB, 14FEB and 15 FEB also detected the MV ALTA ashore at Ballycotton on 17FEB20. The MV ALTA was reported as being ashore at approx 1200 16FEB20. The distances between the detections on 10MAY2020, 14FEB2020, 15FEB2020 and sighting ashore at 1200 16MAY2020 was almost exactly the same as a drift/leeway calculation for a 77m Coastal Freighter.
          Last edited by TangoSierra; 9 March 2021, 14:15.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by TangoSierra View Post
            Fact 1: With 90% confidence, a "dark vessel" (No AIS, VMS, LRIT etc) of 77m length was detected and classified as being a ship on 10MAY2020, 204nm south west of Ireland in the middle of Storm Denis. This information was available to several state agencies and EU Member States within 6 hours of the detection event. It was presented on a map with time and coordinates. It is unknown if anyone from any agency looked at or did anything with the information.

            Fact 2: With 90% confidence, a "dark vessel" of unknown length was detected and classified as being a ship on 14FEB2020, 63nm south of Ireland. Again in the middle of Storm Denis. The distance between the detections on 10MAY2020 and 14FEB2020 was almost exactly the same as a dirft/leeway calculation for a 77m Coastal Freighter. It is unknown if anyone from any agency looked at or did anything with the information.

            Fact 3: With 90% confidence, a "dark vessel" of unknown length was detected and classified as being a ship on 15FEB2020, 30nm south of Ireland. Again in the middle of Storm Denis. The distances between the detections on 10MAY2020, 14FEB2020 and 15FEB2020 was almost exactly the same as a drift/leeway calculation for a 77m Coastal Freighter. It is unknown if anyone from any agency looked at or did anything with the information.

            Fact 4: There was significantly less maritime traffic in the area due to Storm Denis. However on 15FEB2020, there was potentially three vessels within 15nm of the "dark vessel". It is unknown if anyone from any agency looked at or did anything with the information.

            Fact 5: There was a large oil carrying vessel potentially within 3nm of the "dark vessel" with a potential head on closing speed of 8kts. At night. In extremely poor visibility. With significant wave height of 10m. It is unknown if anyone from any agency looked at or did anything with the information.

            Fact 6: The same system that detected the "dark vessel" or "dark Vessels" on 10FEB, 14FEB and 15 FEB also detected the MV ALTA ashore at Ballycotton on 17FEB20. The MV ALTA was reported as being ashore at approx 1200 16FEB20. The distances between the detections on 10MAY2020, 14FEB2020, 15FEB2020 and sighting ashore at 1200 16MAY2020 was almost exactly the same as a drift/leeway calculation for a 77m Coastal Freighter.
            This information may be an authentic statement but the overall circumstances make it difficult to accept as being a completely accurate description of what happened coupling unknown dark targets with a vessel of a particular length down to the nearest metre. Given that we were in a stormy cloudy region, which is a difficult environment for Satellite borne Synthetic Aperture Radar, couple with high winds and generated surface waves, how was anything seen and in such detail. Calculating drift is not an exact science especially taking into account that ALTA previously could only managed 4/5 miles a day over the space of about 5 months. We need to see the data and the drift calculations as overlaid on the weather conditions that drove a derelict 204 nm in 6/7 days.
            Last edited by ancientmariner; 9 March 2021, 15:08.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
              This information may be an authentic statement but the overall circumstances make it difficult to accept as being a completely accurate description of what happened coupling unknown dark targets with a vessel of a particular length down to the nearest metre. Given that we were in a stormy cloudy region, which is a difficult environment for Satellite borne Synthetic Aperture Radar, couple with high winds and generated surface waves, how was anything seen and in such detail. Calculating drift is not an exact science especially taking into account that ALTA previously could only managed 4/5 miles a day over the space of about 5 months. We need to see the data and the drift calculations as overlaid on the weather conditions that drove a derelict 204 nm in 6/7 days.
              It may be difficult for you to accept. Clouds dont affect SAR. SAR is used for measuring wind and wave velocity so it actually suits them. It can detect vessels, wind and waves in the one go.

              The 10FEB2020 detection was with a SAR sensor with sub meter resolution. Hence the length was given with 90% confidence.

              Calculating drift and leeway is a science. The many PhDs in the area would take great offence to your statement.






              etc
              etc
              etc

              As for covering 204nm in 6 days. It was a Storm Denis with an extreme West, South West, South Jetstream with sustained wind speed of 40+kts.

              Met Éireann, the Irish National Meteorological Service, is the leading provider of weather information and related services for Ireland.


              1.5kts x 6 days = 216nm
              Last edited by TangoSierra; 9 March 2021, 16:20.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by TangoSierra View Post
                It may be difficult for you to accept. Clouds dont affect SAR. SAR is used for measuring wind and wave velocity so it actually suits them. It can detect vessels, wind and waves in the one go.

                The 10FEB2020 detection was with a SAR sensor with sub meter resolution. Hence the length was given with 90% confidence.

                Calculating drift and leeway is a science. The many PhDs in the area would take great offence to your statement.






                etc
                etc
                etc

                As for covering 204nm in 6 days. It was a Storm Denis with an extreme West, South West, South Jetstream with sustained wind speed of 40+kts.

                Met Éireann, the Irish National Meteorological Service, is the leading provider of weather information and related services for Ireland.


                1.5kts x 6 days = 216nm
                The scientific references don't fit the bill for a ship that is completely stationary and subject only to surface drift and effects of weather on those normal drift vectors. The studies are for a ship under power, and components of leeway due to external influences, and the consequent effects on true course. Experienced ships commanders can be quickly aware of leeway characteristics of his ship by watching the angular difference between the ships heading and the extended wake track astern of the ship. He might put on 5deg leeway allowance to his gyro course +/- to maintain true course, checking position every 15mins for necessary adjustments. I think SAR needs other inputs to maximise its search capability including AIS supplementary information. Jetstream is at aviation heights and doesn't effect surface winds. However leaving all of that aside if there is a system that can alert to unknown large drifting objects ,such as ships, then it is crucial that we should be part of that team. I'm discounted the drifting Chinese boat study and the " Small objects " study.
                Last edited by ancientmariner; 9 March 2021, 17:48.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                  The scientific references don't fit the bill for a ship that is completely stationary and subject only to surface drift and effects of weather on those normal drift vectors. The studies are for a ship under power, and components of leeway due to external influences, and the consequent effects on true course. Experienced ships commanders can be quickly aware of leeway characteristics of his ship by watching the angular difference between the ships heading and the extended wake track astern of the ship. He might put on 5deg leeway allowance to his gyro course +/- to maintain true course, checking position every 15mins for necessary adjustments. I think SAR needs other inputs to maximise its search capability including AIS supplementary information. Jetstream is at aviation heights and doesn't effect surface winds. However leaving all of that aside if there is a system that can alert to unknown large drifting objects ,such as ships, then it is crucial that we should be part of that team. I'm discounted the drifting Chinese boat study and the " Small objects " study.
                  So you reject reality and submit your own?

                  Comment


                  • Since there seems to be a little bit of skepticism about SAR - here's the public and freely available Sentinel SAR imagery available online for anyone to use, compared with the Sentinel optical imagery also freely available for 26 Feb 21 and 01 Mar 21.

                    A clear sunny day, versus a cloudy one.

                    This took me all of ten minutes to do, the longest bit being layering the images:



                    Sorry, no prizes for guessing the location.

                    As a bonus, 5GHz Air Search radars light up Sentinel SAR imagery like a Christmas tree...
                    Last edited by pym; 9 March 2021, 18:21.

                    Comment


                    • makes you wonder what the Casa(s) saw or didnt see........Ill bet if it was an iceberg, it would be given plenty of attention.

                      Comment


                      • Hey Gringos, we don't need no stinkin expensive stealth warships to invade Ireland, just a decrepit old rusty freighter can do the job.
                        Last edited by Laners; 9 March 2021, 19:59.
                        Don't spit in my Bouillabaisse .

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Laners View Post
                          Hey Gringos, we don't need no stinkin expensive stealth warships to invade Ireland, just a decrepit old rusty freighter can do the job.
                          That's how the Munster Fusiliers invaded Gallipoli.
                          For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                          Comment


                          • Some images showing what active air search radar operating in Sentinel's band looks like:

                            Perhaps some visitors off our shore in February:


                            Methinks the RN are playing with radar in recent days:

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                              makes you wonder what the Casa(s) saw or didnt see........Ill bet if it was an iceberg, it would be given plenty of attention.
                              Does one get icebergs in Irish waters?
                              'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
                              'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
                              Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
                              He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
                              http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by TangoSierra View Post
                                So you reject reality and submit your own?
                                I have not made any claims, I am saying that submitting data as a specific fact ,stating that a ship had been seen on a number of occasions from 204nm out to zero at Ballyandreen coast near Ballycotton over a period of 6 days needs to be fully proven. The mapping shown in subsequent posts are useless for position and scale. I am only asking why didn't we react to the sightings as outlined in your posts.

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