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  • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Note your comment. However the mission of the naval service should include a recognised maritime picture as it is their implied task to keep us safe at sea from armed attack, terrorist incidents, certain illegal activities in fisheries and smuggling. It also is a fact that as the naval service is the only agency with firepower at sea and need total awareness of their environment with sufficient data ashore to direct ships on task. The CG may have aspirations but until that matter is sorted out Defence and it's obligations remain with those at sea.
    Or they are trying to emulate the IAA and have a Maritime VTS version of Eurocontrol?

    No reason why Civil / Military can't coexist, Just like how the Air Corps are inspiring to have a Military Recognised Air Picture in conjunction with Civil ATC.
    It was the year of fire...the year of destruction...the year we took back what was ours.
    It was the year of rebirth...the year of great sadness...the year of pain...and the year of joy.
    It was a new age...It was the end of history.
    It was the year everything changed.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by CTU View Post
      Or they are trying to emulate the IAA and have a Maritime VTS version of Eurocontrol?

      No reason why Civil / Military can't coexist, Just like how the Air Corps are inspiring to have a Military Recognised Air Picture in conjunction with Civil ATC.
      Using common sensors for Eurocontrol and Military ATC is no problem. The relationship between PDF and civil agencies is in the form of ATCP when approved by Government. It is not common for the PDF to request Civil assistance in military/naval operations.

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      • A quick google tells us the NS has had a RMP for 10 years and been involved in MARSUR since it was launched in 2006

        Comment


        • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
          Using common sensors for Eurocontrol and Military ATC is no problem. The relationship between PDF and civil agencies is in the form of ATCP when approved by Government. It is not common for the PDF to request Civil assistance in military/naval operations.
          In an Ideal World the Coast Guard should be the maritime version of the IAA, and be responsible for not only SAR, but also the Regulation and Enforcement of Safety on Civil Vessels.

          If in an emergency either the NS or IRCG was to detect an unknown vessel they should be able to communicate with each other and task whatever asset is nearest, appropriate or available to Investigate and assist depending on the situation and available Information, be that a Naval Vessel, Maritime Patrol Aircraft, SAR Helicopter etc.. without having to deal with mini-empires, and I would hope that would be the same between the IAC and IAA if the Air Corps ever gets tasked an Air Policing role.
          It was the year of fire...the year of destruction...the year we took back what was ours.
          It was the year of rebirth...the year of great sadness...the year of pain...and the year of joy.
          It was a new age...It was the end of history.
          It was the year everything changed.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by DeV View Post
            A quick google tells us the NS has had a RMP for 10 years and been involved in MARSUR since it was launched in 2006
            I did not know that. What do I google to see the blurb. There must be a hole somewhere that ALTA got through?

            Comment


            • Not possible to take any Mil action other that by an armed vessel of the state where the vessel , and it's crew , are under command of a duly commissioned commander . The same applies to Mil Aircraft. In SAR, under Law of the sea , all ships have a duty to respond to requests for assistance, as requested by an MRCC agency or by the casualty itself. if assistance is not to continue for particular vessels on scene they can be told their assistance is no longer required by an On-scene commander( usually a naval vessel), The MRCC, or the Casualty if he deems he has sufficient assistance, or no longer requires it. Because of the right of passage at sea all ships are unknown until they come up on AIS screens. The screens only see the vessels that have active transponders others can only be found by VTS scans or other forms of surveillance including satellite.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                Not possible to take any Mil action other that by an armed vessel of the state where the vessel , and it's crew , are under command of a duly commissioned commander . The same applies to Mil Aircraft. In SAR, under Law of the sea , all ships have a duty to respond to requests for assistance, as requested by an MRCC agency or by the casualty itself. if assistance is not to continue for particular vessels on scene they can be told their assistance is no longer required by an On-scene commander( usually a naval vessel), The MRCC, or the Casualty if he deems he has sufficient assistance, or no longer requires it. Because of the right of passage at sea all ships are unknown until they come up on AIS screens. The screens only see the vessels that have active transponders others can only be found by VTS scans or other forms of surveillance including satellite.
                Is it not possible for an Unarmed State vessel to take Law Enforcement Action (Customs Cutter) and I do Believe that Surveillance as a role, is in the SAR Helicopter tender.
                It was the year of fire...the year of destruction...the year we took back what was ours.
                It was the year of rebirth...the year of great sadness...the year of pain...and the year of joy.
                It was a new age...It was the end of history.
                It was the year everything changed.

                Comment


                • There is a SIGNIFICANT over assumption of what the Naval Service and the Coast Guard have in terms of systems and what they are capable of. A lot of people on this thread are going to be very disappointed when they see the reality.

                  Comment


                  • The Naval service, through Government participation in the EDA developed Maritme Surface Picture, has access to that system known as MARSUR. The participation is not free, since the inception in 2006 until fully deployed in 2016 we have being paying sizable contributions running close to at least a million Euro. There is communications pathways between all participants highlighted by our ability to fit in with the requirements in the Med with Op. Sophia and it's forerunner. Not sure what the reality is, do we have operators in front of screens seeing the Maritime picture to include untagged/unknown objects including derelicts or is it just reams of paper. Missing the ALTA is a shortfall from where we need to be.

                    Comment


                    • Following on from the discussion about satellite surveillance - this article is behind a paywall, but there's enough to get the point - if you're emitting RF at sea and most importantly if the systems are in place to fuse the data and there's someone at the end acting on it, you will be spotted. Obviously this wouldn't have directly detected the MV ALTA, but would have formed part of the dataset in identifying the large radar return at sea as having no AIS or other RF emissions.

                      https://www.economist.com/science-an...o-hiding-place

                      Both local officials and China’s ambassador to Ecuador denied this, and said all the boats were sticking to the rules. In October, however, HawkEye 360, a satellite operator based in Virginia, announced it had detected vessels inside Ecuador’s eez on 14 occasions when the boats in question were not transmitting ais
                      From the provider:
                      The HawkEye Constellation is able to geolocate a diverse set of radio frequency (RF) signals emitted by ships such as marine radar, satellite communications, VHF radio, and emergency beacons. This broader RF range expands visibility to help locate dark ships and identify anomalous behavior.
                      https://www.he360.com/solutions/maritime/

                      This is a capability, which, up to recent years was the preserve of the likes of the US military - now it's becoming accessible to nations and even NGOs - and the capability is going to continue to grow.

                      Comment


                      • The problem created by known where every vessel is within your area can and does impinge on your freedom of safe passage. In general there are three or so conditions where active location transmissions can be a problem and thereby encourage such vessels to go dark. Those occasions would be a warship on mission, Fishing vessels up to no good, and high value traffic ( Cruise Liners, Oil Carriers ) trying to avoid piracy. The surest detection system is either a code Charlie with ID or a real time geolocation system for each ocean area.

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