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  • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post

    Captain Jerome was originally to have a fleet of 6 Flowers and then decided that he would expand capability by getting 3 Flowers and 2 Castles, or 3 Flowers and 1 Hunt class destroyer. The CS said go ahead with the 3 Flowers and make a case for the need of the different type vessel. They lost him in paperwork and we became a Trio. The Civil Service are responsible for raising, equipping and training the Defence Forces answerable only to the MOD.
    The more things change, the more they stay the same.

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    • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post

      Captain Jerome was originally to have a fleet of 6 Flowers and then decided that he would expand capability by getting 3 Flowers and 2 Castles, or 3 Flowers and 1 Hunt class destroyer. The CS said go ahead with the 3 Flowers and make a case for the need of the different type vessel. They lost him in paperwork and we became a Trio. The Civil Service are responsible for raising, equipping and training the Defence Forces answerable only to the MOD.
      Why were the Flowers selected? Was it just that they were going cheap and fast from the RN? I mean just looking at the 3 options maybe a fleet of Castles might have been the better option

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      • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
        Why were the Flowers selected? Was it just that they were going cheap and fast from the RN? I mean just looking at the 3 options maybe a fleet of Castles might have been the better option
        manpower was mainly merchant service and as flowers were mainly manned by thinly trained personnel, it was an easy token step to take ab initio. The package included basic training and a TAS/ elect officer and a CPO TAS, the rest was just sailoring.

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        • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post

          manpower was mainly merchant service and as flowers were mainly manned by thinly trained personnel, it was an easy token step to take ab initio. The package included basic training and a TAS/ elect officer and a CPO TAS, the rest was just sailoring.
          As a general outline the history of the Service has been a concentration on keeping a fleet afloat without maintaining already acquired skills. We started off with speed and torpedoes, followed by corvettes with Depth Charges, Ahead Throwing weapons, and a variety of gunnery weapons. This was followed by a disarmament period with a downgraded corvette, a trawler, and Setanta, We then emerged into a three ship CMS force. Remember torpedoes gone, ASW gone and minesweeping in. This was followed by home built, with EU aid, a fleet of 4 OPV's followed by a big leap into the future with a Helicopter patrol vessel with modern armament and E/O FCS, sonar, and an onboard helicopter. We are in the process of binning all that and have a fine fleet of 6 modern OPV's with limited fitted defensive weapons. Eithne was a brave effort but lack of cross service support and belief was not really there. we should have been allowed fly our own helicopters with Interservices training and Air Corps assistance. A navy to be a navy must control it's environment.

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          • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post

            As a general outline the history of the Service has been a concentration on keeping a fleet afloat without maintaining already acquired skills. We started off with speed and torpedoes, followed by corvettes with Depth Charges, Ahead Throwing weapons, and a variety of gunnery weapons. This was followed by a disarmament period with a downgraded corvette, a trawler, and Setanta, We then emerged into a three ship CMS force. Remember torpedoes gone, ASW gone and minesweeping in. This was followed by home built, with EU aid, a fleet of 4 OPV's followed by a big leap into the future with a Helicopter patrol vessel with modern armament and E/O FCS, sonar, and an onboard helicopter. We are in the process of binning all that and have a fine fleet of 6 modern OPV's with limited fitted defensive weapons. Eithne was a brave effort but lack of cross service support and belief was not really there. we should have been allowed fly our own helicopters with Interservices training and Air Corps assistance. A navy to be a navy must control it's environment.
            Do you think the NZ model could work here? The Aircraft carry RNZN badges, and the crew wear Naval ranks, but the RNZAF squadron is exclusively for shipboard operations.

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            • Sigh. Why does Ireland get it so messed up when NZ can get it so right.

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              • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post

                Do you think the NZ model could work here? The Aircraft carry RNZN badges, and the crew wear Naval ranks, but the RNZAF squadron is exclusively for shipboard operations.
                ]
                Anything aboard ship must be in it's natural intended environment . Our advised proposal was naval pilots to train fixed wing at home. Do rotary training and deck landings in the UK. Conversion courses with Dauphin in France with deck landings. Then French supervised deck landings on Eithne. Then air ops at sea, flying off to Cork airport when ship is on down time to continue pilot hours. Rejoin at sea on resumption of patrols. Maintenance at rotary services in Cork Airport.

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                • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post

                  Anything aboard ship must be in it's natural intended environment . Our advised proposal was naval pilots to train fixed wing at home. Do rotary training and deck landings in the UK. Conversion courses with Dauphin in France with deck landings. Then French supervised deck landings on Eithne. Then air ops at sea, flying off to Cork airport when ship is on down time to continue pilot hours. Rejoin at sea on resumption of patrols. Maintenance at rotary services in Cork Airport.
                  That makes complete sense. Why didn't the Air Corps run with it? (Rhetorical Question).

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                  • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post

                    Do you think the NZ model could work here? The Aircraft carry RNZN badges, and the crew wear Naval ranks, but the RNZAF squadron is exclusively for shipboard operations.
                    Yes. But start spending more is the first hurdle. For every Euro Ireland is spending on Defence the NZDF are spending 3 and none of that is for pensions either. And we are still getting the finger pointed at us by Indo-Pacific partners for being laggards.

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                    • Originally posted by Anzac View Post

                      Yes. But start spending more is the first hurdle. For every Euro Ireland is spending on Defence the NZDF are spending 3 and none of that is for pensions either. And we are still getting the finger pointed at us by Indo-Pacific partners for being laggards.
                      Absolutely right, about spending. Our spending policy is purely organisational to keep people dressed, fed, fires lit, walls painted, and deal piecemeal with contingencies. However Navies are different in that they are fully operational whether in peace or conflict and supposed to be "Good to Go". In twenty years we have gone from global budget of 1.2% to the current 0.27% including pensions. Pundits think we should make other arrangements for Defence particularly in the Maritime and Air Surveillance fields.

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                      • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                        Pundits think we should make other arrangements for Defence particularly in the Maritime and Air Surveillance fields.
                        If they think that contracting out of Maritime and Air Surveillance to another entity other than the the Irish state, which impacts directly on sovereignty, they are very naive. By all means some of the lower tier stuff can be done under contract or by contractors on behalf of the state but the demonstrative control and overarching governance of sovereignty within ones EEZ is a critical cornerstone of the nation state.

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                        • RNZAF Seasprites are AF “owned”, have naval aircrew and AF techs

                          they have 8 aircraft based at RNZAF base Auckland

                          they are based on the 2 frigates, Canterbury and the 2 OPVs

                          there is a massive difference between that and the size of the NS (and AC for that matter), even if we got a 2nd HPV. For that size of operation, the NS would be looking at max 3 Helis, in region of 6-8 pilots, 6-8 rear crew (including reliefs).

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                          • The Operating model though is worth considering. When P31 operated helis the Air Corps had 2 Dauphins capable of operating on her, 244 and 245.
                            There is even a photo somewhere of both of them aboard at the same time.

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                            • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                              The Operating model though is worth considering. When P31 operated helis the Air Corps had 2 Dauphins capable of operating on her, 244 and 245.
                              There is even a photo somewhere of both of them aboard at the same time.
                              it will make zero sense

                              ring fencing the Sqn/flight would (with regular rotations)

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                              • Originally posted by DeV View Post

                                it will make zero sense

                                ring fencing the Sqn/flight would (with regular rotations)
                                Only if you have just one ship that is heli capable. I don't believe that will continue to be the case any longer to be honest.

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