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  • #16
    Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
    There is no doubt that the Political world is becoming more aggressively unstable, with a capacity to create hot spots overnight. Sea trade is very vulnerable to disruption, as even in packed waterways ships can be picked off by armed fast boats. We may be part of that deterrent and should arm our ships accordingly. Replace 20mm with 30mm and add the Martlet suite.
    It is not just at sea but also on land we see a move up from 20/25mm to 30mm. But it is not just in calibre that the new mounts differ, there is also a long overdue replacement of the Mark 1 eyeball FCS with a modern remotely operated, fully stabilized with their own electro-optics. Some systems now like their land based cousin have programmable munitions while others have either SSM's or SAM's. But we should not forget newer systems such as high energy weapons or non-lethal options.

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    • #17
      It is not just at sea but also on land we see a move up from 20/25mm to 30mm.
      Back the early noughties where 20mm was declared to be suboptimal and the Germans off loaded some of their Rh202 Rheinmetalls to us, shortly after we had gone with the 2Omm South African versions of the GIAT on the AML fleet. the RN had dallied with Oerlikon 30mm weaons for secondar weapons on larger ships and primary weapons on minor vessles, we've got it right with the OTO Melara 76mm weapon, maybe it is time to revisit the 20mm weapons and now consider what the RN has done with Martlet.
      Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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      • #18
        WHile there is always room for manually operated weaponry, Local control is always superior as a first line defence. There are a range of RWS platforms available for naval use, operating weapons already in use, if the move to 27mm or 30mm was considered too heavy handed. That said, it took a while for the P50s to get 20mm. Until the Rh202 were gifted, 50 cal was the secondary of the day, on the rail of 01 deck, with big blind spots.
        German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
        German 2: Private? I am a general!
        German 1: That is the bad news.

        Comment


        • #19
          Would agree with above, using an existing weapon type e.g. a 20mm for a RWS, instead of jumping to 27/30mm might be considered more feasible (i’d discount 27mm, as it is not in PDF use).

          A new, high-up position, to front and/ or rear of the ships, for a 20mm RWS (compatible with existing 20mm), and to supplement the two existing 20mm guns, could be a good approach, giving each ship x3 (or x4) different, 20mm positions.

          Also, could a SAM(s) mount, such as the PDF’s RBS70, and/or French Mistral(s) be retro-fitted onto the existing 20mm mounts? This is noting that manually operated single (and twin) naval missile mounts/ stands exist for the RBS70 (and Mistral).

          Also as noted above, there seem to be a number of 20mm type RWS mounts available, that appear to be quite small, and include the Reutech 'Super-Rogue '3 (of the ‘Super-Rogue’ (!) family), that seems to include x4 of the same ‘LMM’ missile as the RN’s re-jiggged 30mm RWS with x5 missile mounts.

          EG.s
          Naval/ Nexter – Narwhal
          Reutech – Super Rogue
          Escribano – Sentinel
          Oerlikon – Searanger
          Oto-Melara – Marlin

          https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news...t-helicopters/

          Looking at above, dare i ask what happened to the 20mm guns on the PDFs ALM20s?! (notwithstanding non-compatible ammunition feeds with NS guns i think).

          Comment


          • #20
            Until the Rh202 were gifted, 50 cal was the secondary o
            To be pedantic...only on the newer vessels at the time, the Gambo was the primary secondary system since 1986. There was no reason this shouldn't have continued only the Rhinos were 'gifted'

            if the move to 27mm or 30mm was considered too heavy handed
            I'd suggest retaining the 20mm systems and fitting a single point 30mm system aft of the funnel somewhere and add a missle system to it.
            Last edited by hptmurphy; 23 July 2019, 20:41.
            Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
              To be pedantic...only on the newer vessels at the time, the Gambo was the primary secondary system since 1986. There was no reason this shouldn't have continued only the Rhinos were 'gifted'



              I' duggest retaining the 20mm systems and fitting a single point 30mm system aft of the funnel somewhere and add a missle system to it.
              As a fall back position, retaining the manual 20mm single mounts by 2, with an added AUTO 30mm fitted with co-mounted ( Thales ) MS Martlet would be an improvement and bridge the range deficiency on our ships, from 1000m to 4000m. Let's not go raking about in the scrapyard for old manual mounts.
              Remote mounts in AUTO mode provides better Target ID and engagement and prevents accidents from missile propellant ignition.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by WhingeNot View Post
                Would agree with above, using an existing weapon type e.g. a 20mm for a RWS, instead of jumping to 27/30mm might be considered more feasible (i’d discount 27mm, as it is not in PDF use).

                A new, high-up position, to front and/ or rear of the ships, for a 20mm RWS (compatible with existing 20mm), and to supplement the two existing 20mm guns, could be a good approach, giving each ship x3 (or x4) different, 20mm positions.

                Also, could a SAM(s) mount, such as the PDF’s RBS70, and/or French Mistral(s) be retro-fitted onto the existing 20mm mounts? This is noting that manually operated single (and twin) naval missile mounts/ stands exist for the RBS70 (and Mistral).

                Also as noted above, there seem to be a number of 20mm type RWS mounts available, that appear to be quite small, and include the Reutech 'Super-Rogue '3 (of the ‘Super-Rogue’ (!) family), that seems to include x4 of the same ‘LMM’ missile as the RN’s re-jiggged 30mm RWS with x5 missile mounts.

                EG.s
                Naval/ Nexter – Narwhal
                Reutech – Super Rogue
                Escribano – Sentinel
                Oerlikon – Searanger
                Oto-Melara – Marlin

                https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news...t-helicopters/

                Looking at above, dare i ask what happened to the 20mm guns on the PDFs ALM20s?! (notwithstanding non-compatible ammunition feeds with NS guns i think).
                That the 27x145mm round is currently not used by the PDF I would ignore as that logic removes ever having a new type of shell. Also now only the NS use the 20mm rounds!

                As for adding more mix to the munitions carried on the ships I would guard against it especially when it comes to missiles. These need special handling against shocks that will be present in an Atlantic storm!

                There are numerous RWS using the Mk44 Bushmaster or copies of it but one reason why I prefer to replace the Rh202s with their distant cousin the BK27 is the rate of fire and range. A Mk44 has a rate of 100/200 rpm, this is fine for slow moving targets but for fast moving seaborne or airborne a higher rate is preferred. The Rhinos were developed as an anti-aircraft gun and thus have a maximum rate of 880/1030rpm with a range 1600m for air targets and 2500m for surface.

                The BK27 (basis for MLG27) is an aircraft cannon designed for air-to-air and air-to-ground roles, Thus it has a rate of fire of 1000-1700rpm selectable +/-100rpm. It also has a range out to 4000m for surface targets. The advantage of this rate is that the mount can cover low rate burst for slow low threat targets and high rate bursts against high speed targets either seaborne or airborne.

                http://navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_27mm-145_mlg27.php

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
                  That the 27x145mm round is currently not used by the PDF I would ignore as that logic removes ever having a new type of shell. Also now only the NS use the 20mm rounds!

                  As for adding more mix to the munitions carried on the ships I would guard against it especially when it comes to missiles. These need special handling against shocks that will be present in an Atlantic storm!

                  There are numerous RWS using the Mk44 Bushmaster or copies of it but one reason why I prefer to replace the Rh202s with their distant cousin the BK27 is the rate of fire and range. A Mk44 has a rate of 100/200 rpm, this is fine for slow moving targets but for fast moving seaborne or airborne a higher rate is preferred. The Rhinos were developed as an anti-aircraft gun and thus have a maximum rate of 880/1030rpm with a range 1600m for air targets and 2500m for surface.

                  The BK27 (basis for MLG27) is an aircraft cannon designed for air-to-air and air-to-ground roles, Thus it has a rate of fire of 1000-1700rpm selectable +/-100rpm. It also has a range out to 4000m for surface targets. The advantage of this rate is that the mount can cover low rate burst for slow low threat targets and high rate bursts against high speed targets either seaborne or airborne.

                  http://navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_27mm-145_mlg27.php
                  The basic problem to overcome for all of our ships is the endemic under-armament for normal patrol duties in even low intensity operations. The BK 27 or the Puma type 30mm armament coupled with remote mounting, to include co-mounted missile system , would fill a gap, and deal with swarm attacks. The USN include armament, on deck carried AV's, as part of ship defence, when on board. Versatile weapon system should allow single/low rate of fire as well as higher AA rates.
                  Last edited by ancientmariner; 24 July 2019, 08:22.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    It's an uphill battle when you have a DoD that has no interest in anything remotely aggressive in nature, and an element within the naval base happy to retain obsolete, but user friendly weaponry over maintenance heavy modern defensive armament. There was quite a fight to get the 76mm up front on the P60s. After all, there as still surplus 40mm L70 lying about and the RN has equipped it's most recent opv with smaller calibre main armament.
                    (That has proved to be a mistake as the RN OPVs become the only vessels available to escort Russian Naval flotilla stretching their muscles in the English channel.)
                    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
                    German 2: Private? I am a general!
                    German 1: That is the bad news.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                      It's an uphill battle when you have a DoD that has no interest in anything remotely aggressive in nature, and an element within the naval base happy to retain obsolete, but user friendly weaponry over maintenance heavy modern defensive armament. There was quite a fight to get the 76mm up front on the P60s. After all, there as still surplus 40mm L70 lying about and the RN has equipped it's most recent opv with smaller calibre main armament.
                      (That has proved to be a mistake as the RN OPVs become the only vessels available to escort Russian Naval flotilla stretching their muscles in the English channel.)
                      Not forgetting maintenance heavy means personnel required

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by DeV View Post
                        Not forgetting maintenance heavy means personnel required
                        The Navy must know what it NEEDS and not be led or cajoled by Ordnance Corps or DOD. 30mm armament is ok if it is in a 360deg format with two or more controlled units and backed up with a missile system. Spare L70 should be vehicle mounted to be deployable at any location in the country, assuming that ammunition is available.
                        It struck me, with ports in short supply we need to identify withdrawal locations for our ships in times of emergency- Killary harbour etc.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                          The Navy must know what it NEEDS and not be led or cajoled by Ordnance Corps or DOD. 30mm armament is ok if it is in a 360deg format with two or more controlled units and backed up with a missile system. Spare L70 should be vehicle mounted to be deployable at any location in the country, assuming that ammunition is available.
                          It struck me, with ports in short supply we need to identify withdrawal locations for our ships in times of emergency- Killary harbour etc.
                          Disagree with L40/70 s being available in any format. If we begin to become amenable to retrograde equipment we may fall victim to our own shortsightedness. The willingness to adapt and modify has always been our down fall...World War two equipment still in use up to the 1970s in some cases becauses someone repeatedly refused to go out on a limb and discard it.

                          Too many stop gap arrangement in place, if someone in Naval Planning decreees with justifable back up that we need a 30mm turret with missile capability, there should be no step back until it is achieved.
                          Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                          • #28
                            no one there to clean them ...oh wait loads of junior officers...

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                              Disagree with L40/70 s being available in any format.

                              Too many stop gap arrangement in place, if someone in Naval Planning decreees with justifable back up that we need a 30mm turret with missile capability, there should be no step back until it is achieved.
                              Just surmising that other budget restricted combatants stick fairly big calibre units onto trucks and use them in multirole su/air modes. Possibly better than NOT getting any potential from them. In 2019 terms if you spend 60m plus on ships you must invest in it's Defence . The doctrine on Close in Defence requires controlled high rates of fire and missile systems . We should also add elements of offence such as support fire by a higher calibre weapon and NSM. Some systems on offer are more easily retrofitted and do not need deck penetrations . Matters are easier if the correct type of Radars are fitted at the outset to provide tracking and FC data. A bit like buying the cot when you know a baby is due!!

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Just surmising that other budget restricted combatants stick fairly big calibre units onto trucks and use them in multirole su/air modes
                                Third world 'technicals' are a far cry from wheel based artillery that South Africa and the Czech Republic use.

                                We should also add elements of offence such as support fire by a higher calibre weapon

                                Put a 127mm gun on a vessel that we already have problems fitting with 76mm, is a bit like buy the pram for twins when you know you barely have the budget for a single baby
                                Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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