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  • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post

    The Irish Coast Guard would be responsible for SAR, Maritime Communications, Salvage, Pollution. Under Maritime Security Act 2004 the behaviour and transiting of shipping as permitted falls to the oversight of the PDF and Gardai who can arrest or detain without warrant for implied transgressions. If Emsa have positional information on ships or something big floating without transponder emissions that info should be passed to Naval authorities for investigation under the Act 2004. If the Navy already have a screen with satellite info, then they should always act.
    What I meant was, the State doesn’t have to spend a load of money on putting satellites into orbit etc it just needs access to an existing system (possibly some work to fuse with their own data and the RMP).

    They should act but in some cases that is going to be another agency as they don’t have jurisdiction.

    it’s like the fact that ARCC is in Shannon and not Co-located with a MRCC. When it’s likely that MRCC assets would be tasked

    Comment


    • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post

      The Irish Coast Guard would be responsible for SAR, Maritime Communications, Salvage, Pollution. Under Maritime Security Act 2004 the behaviour and transiting of shipping as permitted falls to the oversight of the PDF and Gardai who can arrest or detain without warrant for implied transgressions. If Emsa have positional information on ships or something big floating without transponder emissions that info should be passed to Naval authorities for investigation under the Act 2004. If the Navy already have a screen with satellite info, then they should always act.
      That statement is incorrect.

      The behaviour and transiting of shipping as permitted falls to the oversight of the Irish Coast Guard.

      National Point of Contact for Ireland to EMSA is Irish Coast Guard.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by TangoSierra View Post

        That statement is incorrect.

        The behaviour and transiting of shipping as permitted falls to the oversight of the Irish Coast Guard.

        National Point of Contact for Ireland to EMSA is Irish Coast Guard.
        Is there anyone empowered to enforce the Mercantile Marine Act & Merchant Shipping Act at sea?


        Comment


        • The Merchant Shipping Act (Ireland) deals with all aspects of the Safety, conduct, crews, and requirements to safely operate Irish ships. The task of oversight, detention, legal proceedings is devolved to warranted Surveyors appointed by the Minister. In the case of ships at sea, illegal behaviour and necessary interdiction is contained within Maritime Security Act 2004 and necessary powers are devolved to Department of Defence and An Gardai. Best thing is to read the latter act.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by TangoSierra View Post

            That statement is incorrect.

            The behaviour and transiting of shipping as permitted falls to the oversight of the Irish Coast Guard.

            National Point of Contact for Ireland to EMSA is Irish Coast Guard.
            In this matter ICG is an unarmed force with no direct means of intercepting vessels at sea, all such actions is devolved to those who can by Maritime Security Act.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post

              In this matter ICG is an unarmed force with no direct means of intercepting vessels at sea, all such actions is devolved to those who can by Maritime Security Act.
              From reading the legislation it is the Marine Survey Office under the Dept of Transport (separate from IRCG) that has much of the legal power. But it is all done ashore afaik.

              IRCG have RHIBs but afaik no role in enforcement.

              Revenue have cutters and RHIBs and do have a role in enforcement of different legislation

              Comment


              • Originally posted by DeV View Post

                From reading the legislation it is the Marine Survey Office under the Dept of Transport (separate from IRCG) that has much of the legal power. But it is all done ashore afaik.

                IRCG have RHIBs but afaik no role in enforcement.

                Revenue have cutters and RHIBs and do have a role in enforcement of different legislation
                Yes. Each Surveyor is mandated to go on board ships in port and carry out a Port State Inspection. It is wide ranging from all required Equipment, Personnel Qualifications, Fire Fighting capability, Hull State, Loaded within limits, Crew levels, Crew welfare matters in Pay and Food , if necessary further checks can be initiated such as infestation, and essential kits inventory checks such as medical.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post

                  In this matter ICG is an unarmed force with no direct means of intercepting vessels at sea, all such actions is devolved to those who can by Maritime Security Act.
                  The matter we are discussing is not interdiction. The matter in question is surveillance. According to the Minister for Defence, the Irish Coast Guard has responsibility for maritime surveillance of Irish maritime area for the purposes of monitoring "behaviour and transiting of shipping as permitted."

                  You are talking about step 3 in a multi step process when step 1 never happened.
                  Last edited by TangoSierra; 11 December 2021, 16:20.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by TangoSierra View Post



                    There is no expected profile of a drug smuggling boat. They come in all sizes from super tankers to rowing boats to semi-submersibles.

                    A "dark vessel" of 80m length detected by Remote Sensing SAR on several occasions in the middle of Storm Denis with no correlating AIS, VMS, LRIT or electronic signature SHOULD have raised more than an eyebrow. (set off klaxons and strobe lights).

                    From a Fisheries perspective, it could have been a large fishing vessel trawling under illegal, unregulated and unreported (IUU) fishing conditions using the storm as cover.
                    From a Coast Guard perspective, it could have been a coastal freighter/tanker having suffered total electrical failure and crew incapacitation (gas, explosion, etc. etc.) due to the storm.
                    From a Customs/Gardai/Naval perspective, it could have been a trans-oceanic vessel transporting something that did not want the authorities to know about (drugs, slaves, nuclear waste, etc etc)

                    Sensors are a two way street for intelligence. Sensors can confirm/refute existing intelligence or can start the initiation of building an intelligence picture.

                    The detections by SAR on 10FEB2020, 14FEB2020, 15FEB2020 SHOULD have started the cycle.

                    Most likely scenario is that no-one was watching.

                    The agency responsible does not want to be responsible and does not have the personnel or the platforms.
                    The agency that wants responsibility is not being given it and also does not have the personnel.

                    This is even though Ireland has access to state of the art multi-million euro per year remote sensing with resolutions as high as 0.5m, with the option to task satellites to specific areas on request in less than 4hrs.
                    All it takes is a phone call and an online form to be filled in.

                    something something Sea Blindness - Empire building something something
                    Bump

                    Comment


                    • Looks like everybody is correct. However the main question is on the dates mentioned what screen saw the +0.5m contact cross-section. Was it in EMSA solo or has an Irish Agency also got a similar data source. There is no conflict at the initial stage of contact as to category of possible illegality, it is a dark echo to be verified and later to be categorised and processed by the Agency of FIRST contact--the Naval Service. Those that can MUST. .
                      Last edited by ancientmariner; 12 December 2021, 13:52.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post

                        Yes. Each Surveyor is mandated to go on board ships in port and carry out a Port State Inspection. It is wide ranging from all required Equipment, Personnel Qualifications, Fire Fighting capability, Hull State, Loaded within limits, Crew levels, Crew welfare matters in Pay and Food , if necessary further checks can be initiated such as infestation, and essential kits inventory checks such as medical.
                        In port

                        but if the NS comes across a case at sea are they empowered to act?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by DeV View Post

                          In port

                          but if the NS comes across a case at sea are they empowered to act?
                          Visually , if a ship appears to be proceeding normally, there would be no reason to suspect an offence. Every ship at sea is entitled to the right of innocent passage. The Shipping Acts allow for unannounced visits by Department Surveyors In Port. However the Navy cannot intervene at sea, unless passage is no longer innocent, there is prior Int. on a ship of interest with a direction to stop and search as in the case of CLAUDIA and others. Ships at sea that are in an abnormal mode, such as stopped, exhibiting signals of warning or requesting aid, on Fire etc. would all be approached and assisted as appropriate, including information to the CRS (ICG) . When matters are satisfactory the stricken ship via the CRS can release the attending ship once danger has passed. If the Naval vessel is the ON Scene Commander, and a number of ships had approached, the OSC/CRS can allow surplus ships to depart on passage.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                            Looks like everybody is correct. However the main question is on the dates mentioned what screen saw the +0.5m contact cross-section. Was it in EMSA solo or has an Irish Agency also got a similar data source. There is no conflict at the initial stage of contact as to category of possible illegality, it is a dark echo to be verified and later to be categorised and processed by the Agency of FIRST contact--the Naval Service. Those that can MUST. .

                            The agency of first contact is not the Naval Service. It is the body responsible for Maritime Surveillance - The Irish Coast Guard.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by TangoSierra View Post


                              The agency of first contact is not the Naval Service. It is the body responsible for Maritime Surveillance - The Irish Coast Guard.
                              The ICG as mandated collects information gleaned by Communications, whether normal traffic or emergency calls of ships in distress. In dealing with the latter matter they direct declared ships, including Naval ships to assist and stand by casualties. In the case of Maritime security and expected incidents, the Defence Forces and Gardai are the designated authorities to intervene . In effect boarding and armed intervention is the task of the Naval Service. The titles of some organisations are descriptive errors and give a wrong impression of capability.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by DeV View Post

                                In port

                                but if the NS comes across a case at sea are they empowered to act?
                                They could arrest the vessel and escort it to the nearest state port for full inspection, but it is rare that this is done in Ireland, due to the availability of MSO. How would you "come across a case" though? You'd want strong grounds for boarding a ship for, lets say a customs inspection, and then demanding to do a Port State Control inspection. There are other MOUs that say who can do what, but most will take place when the vessel arrives in Port. USCG are more proactive in this regard, but they have other legislation too that covers routine boarding of merchant vessels in US waters.
                                Port state Control inspections in the Paris MoU | Paris MoU
                                Port State Control (imo.org)
                                For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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