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    na grohmiti
    Commander in Chief

  • na grohmiti
    replied
    For sure, history repeating itself, many times.

    Leave a comment:

  • TangoSierra
    2/Lt

  • TangoSierra
    replied
    Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
    ThenavalforcesoftheIrishstate.pdf (maynoothuniversity.ie)

    Interesting historic overview of the naval history of the state, in its various forms, and false starts, in the history of the state up to the 70s.
    Excellent read, thanks for sharing! The conclusions are as valid today as ever.:

    "The failure of the Naval Service to impose a level of influence worthy of their role, as the most active branch of the Defence, in steering Irish defence policy has worked to their disadvantage. In Irish defence planning, the dominant force was the Army, as it had the advantage of greater size and greater access to the decision-making process. Defence expenditure was weighted towards the army, with its needs taking priority over the two smaller services. The focus on land power is not unexpected as the army has always dominated defence planning circles and thus could effectively ensure that all recommendation to the government would continue to maintain the status quo. Turkeys cannot be expected to vote for Christmas. The utility of the Army in bolstering Irish prestige through peacekeeping operations outweighs that of the Naval Service's overseas visits and endless patrolling of the EEZ."
    The history of the various Irish naval forces shows us a state, government and people which took little interest in maritime affairs and had little interest in altering the status quo unless forced to do so by external pressures. The efforts of the various naval services to protect Irish sovereignty remain largely unknown and unrecognised. The impact on the services on such well-researched areas as the Civil War and Anglo-Irish relations postindependence are equally ill-served in the histories of the time. Although on occasion, these factors were subverted by events beyond the control of the state, they do, as previously stated, provide a base line for the attitude of the Irish government towards naval affairs. This attitude certainly stems from the general population's ignorance of maritime affairs and appears to prove the Mahanian concept of seapower as being partially dependent on the character of the people.

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  • na grohmiti
    Commander in Chief

  • na grohmiti
    replied
    For those interested, the Frigate intended for Ghana that we looked at ended up initially as HMS Mermaid, later KG Hang Tuah of the Malaysian Navy. She was retired in 2018 and now serves as a museum ship.
    As HMS Mermaid, she was quite active during the Cod Wars.

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  • Laners
    Chief Casey Ryback

  • Laners
    replied
    Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
    ThenavalforcesoftheIrishstate.pdf (maynoothuniversity.ie)

    Interesting historic overview of the naval history of the state, in its various forms, and false starts, in the history of the state up to the 70s.
    Great read , pity about the miss identification of the class of the mine sweepers and LE Deirdre , I'm thinking Military Archives are at fault .
    Laners
    Chief Casey Ryback
    Last edited by Laners; 18 February 2022, 05:57.

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  • Sparky42
    Colonel

  • Sparky42
    replied
    Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
    ThenavalforcesoftheIrishstate.pdf (maynoothuniversity.ie)

    Interesting historic overview of the naval history of the state, in its various forms, and false starts, in the history of the state up to the 70s.
    Thanks for that, as you say interesting insights, never knew about the suggestion of getting the Poles post WW2, wonder how that could have changed so many things?

    Leave a comment:

  • na grohmiti
    Commander in Chief

  • na grohmiti
    replied
    ThenavalforcesoftheIrishstate.pdf (maynoothuniversity.ie)

    Interesting historic overview of the naval history of the state, in its various forms, and false starts, in the history of the state up to the 70s.

    Leave a comment:

  • ancientmariner
    Brigadier General

  • ancientmariner
    replied
    The difficulty in calculating work, hours, food provision, and board at sea, is the fact that everybody is in confinement for 24 hours a day, whether actually working or not. If you pay 480e a week for an unquantified work time, it could work out at 2.857 an hour. It's why other compensation is offered like share of the catch sales or in the case of NS a sea going allowance.

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  • na grohmiti
    Commander in Chief

  • na grohmiti
    replied
    Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post

    Except provided for in ACTs ( maritime Security ACT) the Naval Service cannot arrest a vessel at sea for Fishery Offences. They detain the vessel where they have grounds that an offence may have been committed against Fishery legislation. Once in port ,the vessel is handed over to the Gardai and fishery inspectors, after which the vessel may be arrested and the skipper charged on approval of the State Solicitor's Office. Unless matters have changed since my day.
    Link to the relevant case.
    Migrant fishermen claim their working conditions are akin to ‘modern slavery’ (irishtimes.com)
    Sadly Google no longer returns results on the initial case brought, as the skipper was found not guilty.

    Leave a comment:

  • ancientmariner
    Brigadier General

  • ancientmariner
    replied
    Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post

    It has been done. Some years ago NS boarded an FV, wasn't happy with health & working conditions of crew. Arrested it and escorted it to port where ITF arranged an inspection. I believe the skipper was later charged under slavery legislation,but was found not guilty in court.
    Except provided for in ACTs ( maritime Security ACT) the Naval Service cannot arrest a vessel at sea for Fishery Offences. They detain the vessel where they have grounds that an offence may have been committed against Fishery legislation. Once in port ,the vessel is handed over to the Gardai and fishery inspectors, after which the vessel may be arrested and the skipper charged on approval of the State Solicitor's Office. Unless matters have changed since my day.
    ancientmariner
    Brigadier General
    Last edited by ancientmariner; 13 December 2021, 09:02.

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  • na grohmiti
    Commander in Chief

  • na grohmiti
    replied
    Originally posted by DeV View Post

    For example, during a fisheries boarding within the 12 mile limit
    It has been done. Some years ago NS boarded an FV, wasn't happy with health & working conditions of crew. Arrested it and escorted it to port where ITF arranged an inspection. I believe the skipper was later charged under slavery legislation,but was found not guilty in court.

    Leave a comment:


  • DeV
    replied
    Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post

    They could arrest the vessel and escort it to the nearest state port for full inspection, but it is rare that this is done in Ireland, due to the availability of MSO. How would you "come across a case" though? You'd want strong grounds for boarding a ship for, lets say a customs inspection, and then demanding to do a Port State Control inspection. There are other MOUs that say who can do what, but most will take place when the vessel arrives in Port. USCG are more proactive in this regard, but they have other legislation too that covers routine boarding of merchant vessels in US waters.
    Port state Control inspections in the Paris MoU | Paris MoU
    Port State Control (imo.org)
    For example, during a fisheries boarding within the 12 mile limit

    Leave a comment:

  • na grohmiti
    Commander in Chief

  • na grohmiti
    replied
    Originally posted by DeV View Post

    In port

    but if the NS comes across a case at sea are they empowered to act?
    They could arrest the vessel and escort it to the nearest state port for full inspection, but it is rare that this is done in Ireland, due to the availability of MSO. How would you "come across a case" though? You'd want strong grounds for boarding a ship for, lets say a customs inspection, and then demanding to do a Port State Control inspection. There are other MOUs that say who can do what, but most will take place when the vessel arrives in Port. USCG are more proactive in this regard, but they have other legislation too that covers routine boarding of merchant vessels in US waters.
    Port state Control inspections in the Paris MoU | Paris MoU
    Port State Control (imo.org)

    Leave a comment:

  • ancientmariner
    Brigadier General

  • ancientmariner
    replied
    Originally posted by TangoSierra View Post


    The agency of first contact is not the Naval Service. It is the body responsible for Maritime Surveillance - The Irish Coast Guard.
    The ICG as mandated collects information gleaned by Communications, whether normal traffic or emergency calls of ships in distress. In dealing with the latter matter they direct declared ships, including Naval ships to assist and stand by casualties. In the case of Maritime security and expected incidents, the Defence Forces and Gardai are the designated authorities to intervene . In effect boarding and armed intervention is the task of the Naval Service. The titles of some organisations are descriptive errors and give a wrong impression of capability.

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  • TangoSierra
    2/Lt

  • TangoSierra
    replied
    Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
    Looks like everybody is correct. However the main question is on the dates mentioned what screen saw the +0.5m contact cross-section. Was it in EMSA solo or has an Irish Agency also got a similar data source. There is no conflict at the initial stage of contact as to category of possible illegality, it is a dark echo to be verified and later to be categorised and processed by the Agency of FIRST contact--the Naval Service. Those that can MUST. .

    The agency of first contact is not the Naval Service. It is the body responsible for Maritime Surveillance - The Irish Coast Guard.

    Leave a comment:

  • ancientmariner
    Brigadier General

  • ancientmariner
    replied
    Originally posted by DeV View Post

    In port

    but if the NS comes across a case at sea are they empowered to act?
    Visually , if a ship appears to be proceeding normally, there would be no reason to suspect an offence. Every ship at sea is entitled to the right of innocent passage. The Shipping Acts allow for unannounced visits by Department Surveyors In Port. However the Navy cannot intervene at sea, unless passage is no longer innocent, there is prior Int. on a ship of interest with a direction to stop and search as in the case of CLAUDIA and others. Ships at sea that are in an abnormal mode, such as stopped, exhibiting signals of warning or requesting aid, on Fire etc. would all be approached and assisted as appropriate, including information to the CRS (ICG) . When matters are satisfactory the stricken ship via the CRS can release the attending ship once danger has passed. If the Naval vessel is the ON Scene Commander, and a number of ships had approached, the OSC/CRS can allow surplus ships to depart on passage.

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