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  • #46
    I would apportion some blame to the implementation of regime change in the Middle East, followed by the Arab Spring across North Africa, and overlaid with radical Islamisation in East Africa and Nigeria. The West were conned into supporting interests with hidden agendas who once on the ascendent proceeded to hunt and displace internal ethnic populations. Hence the migrants and migration. Libya is only a place, maybe with agreement of the North African states it should become a UN Territory and try to restore normality. The migration by sea has to stop as most Navies will be run ragged chasing their tails for no benefit except to the traffickers.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by spider View Post
      Maybe they're more likely to buy a boat and head for Cork.

      What then?
      They'll need some boat ... more rescues

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Orion View Post
        They'll need some boat ... more rescues
        Its about the same distance as Libya to Italy...more rescues...then what?

        My point is...we need to start thinking about this...and we need to stop this at source...before it becomes either a United Kingdom or Ireland problem.

        I wouldn't ever assume that your geographical location will protect you from this landing on your doorstep.

        I was speaking to a lady on Tuesday night who recently ran the gauntlet at Calais...frightening apparently.

        This thing is going to get huge before it goes away.

        South Belfast...yes South Belfast is already teeming with Somalis...particularly around the Holy Lands...one murdered another earlier this year.

        And they are arriving here legally. Imagine the scene if Ireland...and Northern Ireland...got hit by waves of illegals.

        If you'd said to me ten years ago that there would be Somali refugees living in Belfast I'd have laughed at you...

        http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-26189348
        'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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        • #49
          Part of the whole issue is that this has been approached as a humanitarian mission, a stop people drowning mission, therefore an SAR mission rather than a border control mission. An interception of illegals mission which is what it is, were just too afraid of the PC lobby to call it that. Its what Frontex refers to it as so why cant the rest of us.

          We are all well aware that the duty to rescue people in distress is a longstanding maritime tradition and is part of customary international law. It is expressed in the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) and in several other international law of the sea instruments. The duty to render assistance applies in all maritime zones and to every person in distress without discrimination, including asylum-seekers and refugees. However the specific legal framework governing rescue at sea does not apply to interception operations that have no search and rescue component.

          So we started off on the wrong foot there as we are stating that Humanitarian assistance (and therefore rescue) is our mission. So how does the UN define an interception?

          There is no internationally accepted definition of interception, and its meaning is largely informed by State practice. UNHCR Executive Committee Conclusion No. 97 (2003) on “Protection Safeguards in Interception Measures” contains a working definition of interception as “one of the measures employed by States to: (i) prevent embarkation of persons on an international journey; (ii) prevent further onward international travel by persons who have commenced their journey; or (iii) assert control of vessels where there are reasonable grounds to believe the vessel is transporting persons contrary to international or national maritime law; where, in relation to the above, the person or persons do not have the required documentation or valid permission to enter”.

          A refugee is defined by the 1951 United Nations Convention relating to the Status of Refugees ("Refugee Convention") as a person who:

          Owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality, and is unable to or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country.

          Merely meeting the above definition does not ensure that refugee status will be granted. In fact, most persons loosely described as "refugees" are actually classified as migrants.

          In order to obtain refugee status, a migrant must both apply for and receive asylum. So till that has happened their migrants, intercepted at sea because there are reasonable grounds to believe the vessel is transporting persons contrary to international or national maritime law; where, in relation to the above, the person or persons do not have the required documentation or valid permission to enter.

          Its a play on the law but it changes the dynamics of the mission totally.

          When migrants and their vessel are intercepted and taken aboard (if necessary), they come under the jurisdiction of the flag state. The flag state is under no obligation to grant asylum, nor is there any binding international convention that specifically covers the duties regarding migrants on ships. Generally, these migrants are disembarked at the next port of call. However, a captain has discretion that may allow him to determine an alternate destination according to the circumstances.

          There was a get-together of the UNHCR in Djibouti in 2011 to discuss these very issues. One of the key points to come out of that little gathering was this: Care is required to ensure that rapid processing and / or an increase in resettlement places for asylum-seekers or refugees rescued at sea does not create pull factors or lead persons traveling irregularly by sea to create “distress” situations in order to promote rescue.

          Hands up everyone who thinks that's exactly what were doing?



          We travel not for trafficking alone,
          By hotter winds our fiery hearts are fanned,
          For lust of knowing what should not be known,
          We make the Golden Journey to Samarkand.

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          • #50
            FMP got you. Absolutely on the button.We must not be part of genetically engineering Europe.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
              We must not be part of genetically engineering Europe.
              Sweet Jesus!! That sounds scary! Not exactly what I meant with my post, more looking at the aspects of the "return to sender" option.
              We travel not for trafficking alone,
              By hotter winds our fiery hearts are fanned,
              For lust of knowing what should not be known,
              We make the Golden Journey to Samarkand.

              Comment


              • #52
                The crux of the issue is simple. Africa needs to be stabilised. It has been clear that since Europe ceased influencing politics in Africa, state by state they have returned to the savage spear chucking that they knew and loved.
                Otherwise the only solution is to contain their political problems within the continent of Africa. Don't export it to Europe by any route.
                German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
                German 2: Private? I am a general!
                German 1: That is the bad news.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by FMP View Post
                  Sweet Jesus!! That sounds scary! Not exactly what I meant with my post, more looking at the aspects of the "return to sender" option.
                  Sorry! it was a throw away remark. O'Brien in today's Sunday Independent has an interesting article on the matter. He believes that the leak is Libya's immense coastline. He is of the opinion that Libya could be run , occupied, and thereby curtail trafficking. He believes Libya is sufficiently contained both geographically and by strong countries on its western border, to bring the problem under control. In any event the Minister must control our involvement until we are sure it won't have negative effects.

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                  • #54
                    In any event the Minister must control our involvement until we are sure it won't have negative effects.
                    Are we commiting to a EU led mission or freelancing based on the ministers whims? The key is a task force probably led by italy and Malta with the intenion of prevent unauthorized acces to the EU and Malta.

                    In order to reduce loss of life the intended migrants have to be prevented from getting to sea. So is it actually an entirely naval operation or should ground forces be involved to stop these boats putting to sea, and then the naval forces to prevent them getting beyond a fixed point should they get to sea.

                    I believe Kenny had a knee jerk reaction to public opinion to get involved what is in effect closing the stable door after the horse has gone.......and its not going to be Eithne, more like Roisin or Niamh!!!
                    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      No evidence for this but looking at the proposed Mediterranean involvement and the donation of Aoife to Malta it looks to me like nudging from European partners. Ireland is simply being expected to do more.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Orion View Post
                        No evidence for this but looking at the proposed Mediterranean involvement and the donation of Aoife to Malta it looks to me like nudging from European partners. Ireland is simply being expected to do more.
                        We don't have the resources to do more other than that which we offer.

                        Aoife is to have her hull surveyed in the drydock next week pending transfer,L.E. Samuel Beckett has warranty issues that would preclude her from deploment such as this, the CPVs are not suitable for an amount of reasons, the delay of James Joyce has been put back and again would probably have the same warranty issues as Beckett, leaving Roisin and Niamh as the other suitable vessels.

                        L.E. Eithne is not suitable in my opinion for reasons already offered and if L.E. Aisling were to be deployed, might as well book the crew tickets home by air.....

                        If we were full up to strenght, we could indeed offer more, but we're a little thin on the ground regarding suitable vessels.

                        Fine for the Italians who can nip home on the turn of a tide, we are looking at an extended unsupported deployment, with huge potential implications.

                        Slow down, we'll get something out there as soon as the boxes are ticked.
                        Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          President says plan to destroy migrant boats 'monstrous'

                          http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0427/697163-migrants/

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                            We don't have the resources to do more other than that which we offer.

                            Aoife is to have her hull surveyed in the drydock next week pending transfer,L.E. Samuel Beckett has warranty issues that would preclude her from deploment such as this, the CPVs are not suitable for an amount of reasons, the delay of James Joyce has been put back and again would probably have the same warranty issues as Beckett, leaving Roisin and Niamh as the other suitable vessels.

                            L.E. Eithne is not suitable in my opinion for reasons already offered and if L.E. Aisling were to be deployed, might as well book the crew tickets home by air.....

                            If we were full up to strenght, we could indeed offer more, but we're a little thin on the ground regarding suitable vessels.

                            Fine for the Italians who can nip home on the turn of a tide, we are looking at an extended unsupported deployment, with huge potential implications.

                            Slow down, we'll get something out there as soon as the boxes are ticked.
                            Quick question, what warranty issues for Beckett would restrict her from deployment? Thought her Warranty was out to be honest?

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Rhodes View Post
                              President says plan to destroy migrant boats 'monstrous'

                              http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0427/697163-migrants/
                              Yeah I saw that, tell us Higgins what exactly do you propose, given the population growth and instability in Africa/Middle East, that we do?

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
                                Yeah I saw that, tell us Higgins what exactly do you propose, given the population growth and instability in Africa/Middle East, that we do?
                                Well, I didn't vote for him (I always thought he was a pillock, from when he wrote in Hot Press in the 80's)...
                                Last edited by Flamingo; 27 April 2015, 19:32.
                                'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
                                'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
                                Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
                                He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
                                http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

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