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  • #46
    So why bother with all the high end investment in cadets and just get them in on short service commissions.

    Makes sense realistically. No long term financial commitment
    Last edited by hptmurphy; 2 August 2016, 23:21.
    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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    • #47
      Its the same throughout the Public Service where certain workers have skills needed by private concerns. There was an article in late 2015 where the State Solicitors office in Dublin couldnt recruit solicitors at 30k pa whilst the big firms were offering newbies 55-60k pa.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
        Necessity. The NS just can't keep young officers in the current economic climate. Out of one class of ten cadets, who should all now be approaching LT(NS) rank, only one remains. Many of the rest were poached by german retailers based in Ireland, with the offer of €60k per annum plus company Audi A4.
        Until the DF can compete with that, it will continue losing those in their late 20s and early 30s to the civilian world.
        Except they will be burnt out within 3 years. They are worked for that salary. Some of those recruited by the likes of Lidl haven't lasted a year with them.


        Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
        So why bother with all the high end investment in cadets and just get them in on short service commissions.

        Makes sense realistically. No long term financial commitment
        Currently cadets are commissioned on a 3 year SSC which is the duration of their training. Is that part of the issue.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
          Necessity. The NS just can't keep young officers in the current economic climate. Out of one class of ten cadets, who should all now be approaching LT(NS) rank, only one remains. Many of the rest were poached by german retailers based in Ireland, with the offer of €60k per annum plus company Audi A4.
          Until the DF can compete with that, it will continue losing those in their late 20s and early 30s to the civilian world.

          Eh not exactly 100% correct only one NS officer workig for a supermarket (Two NCO's are working on manager ref prog). Anecdotally the 10 or so army offices that left o do the same are now dropping out of the while thing as the hours are fairly insane?

          one of the bigger issues is pay is fairly poor for junior offices, the pension is now terrible (careers average payment) and their are no real perks.

          The object of the DE officers is to get bums on seats as fast as possible, they will never be considered "real" officers in any case and like the last lot most will be driven from service within a decade!

          It will be fascinating to see what the up take is this time as the last lot where on better wages etc.

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          • #50
            Problem there straight away 'real officers '

            Given some very noteworthy officers in the past were DE's one even decorated were these not real officers despite their 30 year contribution to the service. . Up to Liam Moloney all the Flag officers were DE'S as we're a large portion of the top MEOs

            I do understand the sentiments attached to EDS but the fact is without them the NS is having problems.

            The high turn over thing has always been an issue and even without the financial issues attached the inability to provide scheduled relief is a bigger issue to my mind.

            Hence welcome the DEs with open arms.

            On the point of the leavers going to greener pastures. Anyone who leaves to join the retail multiples on the conditions mention can expect to be working 60 - 70 hour weeks under huge pressure. At that level they expect high burn out and probably expect very resilient people coming from the DF. However the types of pressure around making money and driving ships are incomparable and the guys at the retail end are merciless. As an officer you have team to help seal with issues..in retail the guy behind you is lining himself up for your job when you slip.

            As for the jobs
            Last edited by hptmurphy; 3 August 2016, 12:36.
            Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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            • #51
              [QUOTE=hptmurphy;443434]Problem there straight away 'real officers '

              "(Given some very noteworthy officers in the past were DE's one even decorated were these not real officers despite their 30 year contribution to the service. . Up to Liam Moloney all the Flag officers were DE'S as we're a large portion of the top MEOs

              I do understand the sentiments attached to EDS but the fact is without them the NS is having problems").

              I agree with your views. The challenge for the Naval Service is to make them as REAL officers as is possible. It is important to try and maintain an Naval Ethic within the service and imbue a fighting spirit and a willingness to go in harms way where and when necessary. How it will all go is largely down to leadership and mindset of those tasked with selecting and training new entrants. The advantage for this recruitment is that the ships and environment on offer is technically advanced and will not dilute their career experience.
              Last edited by ancientmariner; 4 August 2016, 11:07.

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              • #52
                [QUOTE=ancientmariner;443457]
                Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                Problem there straight away 'real officers '

                "(Given some very noteworthy officers in the past were DE's one even decorated were these not real officers despite their 30 year contribution to the service. . Up to Liam Moloney all the Flag officers were DE'S as we're a large portion of the top MEOs

                I do understand the sentiments attached to EDS but the fact is without them the NS is having problems").

                I agree with your views. The challenge for the Naval Service is to make them as REAL officers as is possible. It is important to try and maintain an Naval Ethic within the service and imbue a fighting spirit and a willingness to go in harms way where and when necessary. How it will all go is largely down to leadership and mindset of those tasked with selecting and training new entrants. The advantage for this recruitment is that the ships and environment on offer is technically advanced and will not dilute their career experience.
                .

                Due to the Emergency nature of recruitment in the PDF, based on minimising overall cost, we are continually losing ground against experience and using our best people as training cadres. Recent promotional Naval pictures showed DE officers under training so obviously Cadet intakes are not keeping pace. The PDF are about to recruit 1600 personnel over two years to bring the overall figure to 9600 all ranks. This represents 40 classes of 40 recruits all requiring section NCO's and officers for training and assessment for final approval. Given normal unit losses for all reasons , coupled with recruit losses in training, the recruitment target should be nearer 2000, to try and reach the 9600 level.
                An open door policy, on recruitment, for up to four years would help to offset the attrition suffered on service strengths. It is an indictment of our controllers that strengths are publicly admitted to be almost 17% below permitted levels with deeper shortages in certain ranks and trades.

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                • #53
                  [QUOTE=ancientmariner;454923]
                  Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                  .

                  Due to the Emergency nature of recruitment in the PDF, based on minimising overall cost, we are continually losing ground against experience and using our best people as training cadres. Recent promotional Naval pictures showed DE officers under training so obviously Cadet intakes are not keeping pace. The PDF are about to recruit 1600 personnel over two years to bring the overall figure to 9600 all ranks. This represents 40 classes of 40 recruits all requiring section NCO's and officers for training and assessment for final approval. Given normal unit losses for all reasons , coupled with recruit losses in training, the recruitment target should be nearer 2000, to try and reach the 9600 level.
                  An open door policy, on recruitment, for up to four years would help to offset the attrition suffered on service strengths. It is an indictment of our controllers that strengths are publicly admitted to be almost 17% below permitted levels with deeper shortages in certain ranks and trades.
                  This 800 figure annually is being bigged up a lot, all the way through most of the 00s, they were taking on that many so it's a non story.

                  You'll also notice DE NCOs.

                  The issue is pay, terms and conditions. If you may the lot of the people more sustainable (e.g. less duties, shorter working week etc), even if you can't provide the pay it will help with the morale.

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                  • #54
                    [QUOTE=DeV;454924]
                    Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post

                    This 800 figure annually is being bigged up a lot, all the way through most of the 00s, they were taking on that many so it's a non story.

                    You'll also notice DE NCOs.

                    The issue is pay, terms and conditions. If you may the lot of the people more sustainable (e.g. less duties, shorter working week etc), even if you can't provide the pay it will help with the morale.
                    Nothing much changes except the GS numbers are to be increased to 15,000 and all Branches of the PDF are to be stalled at 9,500, which is a figure which maximises duty intervals and diminishes deployability.

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                    • #55
                      [QUOTE=ancientmariner;455701]
                      Originally posted by DeV View Post

                      Nothing much changes except the GS numbers are to be increased to 15,000 and all Branches of the PDF are to be stalled at 9,500, which is a figure which maximises duty intervals and diminishes deployability.
                      Well! Well! Ireland has now joined a European Defence Service by 72 votes to 42 votes in the Dail. Better known as PESCO it is in the process of being formed , and following a Council decision will be adopted by majority vote before the end of 2017.
                      Permanent Structured Cooperation ( PESCO ) will be a framework for closer coop and a structured process to gradually deepen defence coop within the EU. " It will be a driver for integration in the Defence field".
                      It involves agreed Budgets, and Plans, and involves oversight and regular assessment. It's to reinforce EU's autonomy to act alone in Defence matters with willing partners, and with regional integration such as the European Air Transport Command and Belgian-Dutch Navy Cooperation in regional Defence. There must be a hope we can upgrade to fit in with our Allies.

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                      • #56
                        if you are following our other threads there is a good discussion about PESCO
                        "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

                        "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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                        • #57
                          Very Good article by Ian O' Doherty in Thursdays Indo on the Defence Forces, Can not up load it myself. But would be greatful if someone could.

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                          • #58
                            Naval berthage

                            Originally posted by sofa View Post
                            Very Good article by Ian O' Doherty in Thursdays Indo on the Defence Forces, Can not up load it myself. But would be greatful if someone could.
                            Given the continuing move towards European Defence Co-operation, we are miserably short of dedicated secure Naval Berthage. Historically we had the Naval Base, Basin berths, and an Oil Wharf used by default as a standby short term berth. We also had a Naval Buoy in Dunlaoghaire which we traded for what we called the Naval Berth on the inner southern arm of Dunlaoghaire Pier. We also had some anchorage rights in Bere island and Lough Swilly.
                            By and large we have been edged out to alongside at Base only and as visitors on paid sufferance elsewhere. With up to 9 ships, and a steady stream of Naval visitors we need to provide for more dedicated, secure naval Berths nationally.

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                            • #59
                              Is dunlaoighre still available, with the new plans for the harbour?
                              With the Port of Cork moving downstream, there is an opportunity for the NS to secure berthage at the South Jetties and Tivoli for all but the Largest of vessels. The future use of these jetties will be residential, and the quay space will be barely used, but are already well equipped for services and secure access.
                              For now, everything hangs on the CoDF report, still possibly 2 weeks from the Ministers desk.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by na grohmití View Post
                                Is dunlaoighre still available, with the new plans for the harbour?
                                With the Port of Cork moving downstream, there is an opportunity for the NS to secure berthage at the South Jetties and Tivoli for all but the Largest of vessels. The future use of these jetties will be residential, and the quay space will be barely used, but are already well equipped for services and secure access.
                                Under the 2011 Master Plan, Dun Laoghaire would still be available

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