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  • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
    If we want a purposeful Navy- going by Global Strengths Tables- we need to aspire to the following Fleet ship types. Frigate X 1, Corvette X 1, Logistics X 1, OPV 90 X 5, MCM adaptable x 3, SSK x 3, and 30m Training Craft X 3 , plus a second port base, and a port of refuge on west coast maybe Killybegs. Not all would be new builds. Coupled with all of that an MOU with friendly countries for training and exercises.
    What would be the capital spend required for the above and how much annual expenditure would be required to maintain all of these assets and the personnel required to operate them?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
      If we want a purposeful Navy- going by Global Strengths Tables- we need to aspire to the following Fleet ship types. Frigate X 1, Corvette X 1, Logistics X 1, OPV 90 X 5, MCM adaptable x 3, SSK x 3, and 30m Training Craft X 3 , plus a second port base, and a port of refuge on west coast maybe Killybegs. Not all would be new builds. Coupled with all of that an MOU with friendly countries for training and exercises.
      Some years ago a panel of experts came up with a "fantasy fleet" to suit Ireland's needs at the time. They proposed it to the government during the White Paper consultation. It used to be online, but it was much more ambitious.
      The problem is not the capital spend required to reach it but why we didn't already have it. Once we have it, we just maintain that status quo. Correcting the anomaly that is the Naval service strength should have been dealt with as soon as we went to 9 ships.
      To hell with public opinion, the public don't have a clue. The result of any election is all the evidence you need for that. I see idiots on Linkedin, of all places whining about the Air Corps getting three more private jets last week, FFS.
      Following a recent move, I was looking through some old newspaper clippings I used to keep of Defence related news from the early 80s. Nothing has changed, except the people involved.
      We don't have enough ships, more are on the way... We need more people to crew them, but the wages are terrible (the recession in the 80s saved the Defence Forces from vanishing, but recruitment remained sporadic). Foreign warplanes routinely fly through our airspace, we are powerless to stop them. (C5 Galaxys flew over Ireland on their way to Greenham Common). Our troops overseas need better protection both by way of equipment and morale.
      Meanwhile, the government get another pay raise....
      For now, everything hangs on the CoDF report, still possibly 2 weeks from the Ministers desk.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
        Some years ago a panel of experts came up with a "fantasy fleet" to suit Ireland's needs at the time. They proposed it to the government during the White Paper consultation. It used to be online, but it was much more ambitious.
        The problem is not the capital spend required to reach it but why we didn't already have it. Once we have it, we just maintain that status quo. Correcting the anomaly that is the Naval service strength should have been dealt with as soon as we went to 9 ships.
        To hell with public opinion, the public don't have a clue. The result of any election is all the evidence you need for that. I see idiots on Linkedin, of all places whining about the Air Corps getting three more private jets last week, FFS.
        Following a recent move, I was looking through some old newspaper clippings I used to keep of Defence related news from the early 80s. Nothing has changed, except the people involved.
        We don't have enough ships, more are on the way... We need more people to crew them, but the wages are terrible (the recession in the 80s saved the Defence Forces from vanishing, but recruitment remained sporadic). Foreign warplanes routinely fly through our airspace, we are powerless to stop them. (C5 Galaxys flew over Ireland on their way to Greenham Common). Our troops overseas need better protection both by way of equipment and morale.
        Meanwhile, the government get another pay raise....
        Is there a link for the "fantasy fleet"?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Auldsod View Post
          What would be the capital spend required for the above and how much annual expenditure would be required to maintain all of these assets and the personnel required to operate them?
          As well as just thinking about the capital spend it must be seen how expanded and new capabilities could be added, and not just with the NS. Any serious plan would be on the 10-15-20 year range and trying to get a commitment over such a time frame will be even more difficult. But on the cost side if we did raise the % of goverment spending toward the 5% level which the rest of the EU is targeting then financing fleet expansion would not be an issue.

          Comment


          • This debate is going on for some time here is an extract from a memo from a lttle while ago, full memo in the link below

            Of course, the most effective defensive craft for our purposes would be the submarine and the ultimate acquisition of a few of the smaller type known as 'Coastal' ones should always be kept in view even if we have only a very limited Naval Service.
            https://www.difp.ie/docs/1926/Coastal-Defence/740.htm

            Comment


            • Originally posted by EUFighter View Post
              Is there a link for the "fantasy fleet"?
              It used to be online somewhere. I think Jim Robinson, Capt (NS) Retd had a part in it.
              For now, everything hangs on the CoDF report, still possibly 2 weeks from the Ministers desk.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                It used to be online somewhere. I think Jim Robinson, Capt (NS) Retd had a part in it.
                Is it this one?

                https://forum.irishmilitaryonline.co...ist(realistic)

                Originally posted by Goldie fish View Post
                In response to a query from a reasonable member of the board (not newby) here is the List of ship requirements for the Modern Irish naval service. Call it the ultimate wish list, for current requirements.




                The Wish list as mentioned came about before and after the white paper most notably from the Report to the Steering Group of the Irish Naval Service and Air Corps, A former Naval service senior officer both of these are on the web, but I cant remember where.
                The Steering group recommended certain changes in the logistics and taskings of the Naval service, but with an 8 ship navy, with the then current (1998) fleet being replaced over 18 years at a cost of IR£195m with ships more suitably equipped for the role.
                The former Naval officer, Peadar McElhinny, Pointed out that the Average Naval fleet in Europe was 88 ships, with the Belgians, who had territorial seas a fraction the size of our own have 18 vessels. Having 8 ships he said was the same as the Gardai having one Patrol car to cover the Whole Island of Ireland! The Naval service was looking for a minimum 15-ship fleet.

                But by far the Beefiest wish list that made its way into the public domain was printed in the July/August issue of on Cosantoir in 1999.In an article written by one Greg Browne who had earlier written a similar piece about the Air Corps.
                The requirements given the current tasks and responsibilities of the Naval service sought the following fleet, which isn't that far fetched really.

                #4 Multi Purpose Guided Missile frigates equipped with Helicopter, SAM, SSM, CIWS and AS Torpedoes.
                Capable of 30 kts these ships would require a crew of 150-200 and cost Between IR£200 and IR£250
                Examples include the VSEL Frigate 2000,Chantiers de l'Atlantique Floreal and Meko 200

                #4 P31 Helicopter carrying Frigates equipped with Helicopter,SAM and AS TT.
                These frigates would require a crew of 85 and would cost approximately IR£55m

                #4 P51 Corvettes upgraded to include SONAR,air/surface radar,SAM,AS TT and Minelaying capability
                The Corvettes would require a crew of 60 and would cost IR£35m upgraded

                #4 Minesweepers armed with CIWS and GAMB-01 Cannon performing a secondary coastal patrol function.
                The Minesweepers would require a crew of 45 and cost IR£20m.Examples include the Lurssen 323 Class and the Fincantieri Gaeta

                #A-17 Fleet replenishment Auxiliary.This Ocean capable vessel would be capable of undertaking replenishment in sea state 6 and would have facilities for 50 trainees. This vessel would have a crew of 120 plus an optional 50 trainees and would cost IR£60m

                #A-18 Ocean Going Tug.Capable of Dive support Operations,150 tonne Bollard pull,and pollution control. The Ocean Going Tug would have a crew of 40 and would cost IR£25m

                #A-19 Hydrographic Survey Vessel.A Specialist shallow Draft ship also capable of pollution control and drug interdiction. The ship would be crewed by 30-40 and would cost in the region of IR£20m

                Nothing too fancy there,though the cost is a bit excessive,mostly because the Naval service has been neglected for so long,like everything else in this country. But the author ends with a quote from Richard Sharpe of Jane's Fighting Ships.
                "An efficient Navy with a tradition of loyal service to the national government is a priceless asset which once squandered, will be difficult to reclaim."
                Last edited by CTU; 23 September 2020, 13:41.
                It was the year of fire...the year of destruction...the year we took back what was ours.
                It was the year of rebirth...the year of great sadness...the year of pain...and the year of joy.
                It was a new age...It was the end of history.
                It was the year everything changed.

                Comment


                • That's the one. Much appreciated.
                  The Irish Maritime Forum was the group who put forward this proposal (and other things). Unfortunately the designs mentioned are obsolete now 20 years later, but the figures mentioned are still a reasonable guideline.
                  Remember NZ (who already operated Dive support, Research, Oiler and Frigates) in the early 2000s decided to embark on an expensive plan to provide 4 CPV, 2 HPV and 1 MRV, while dealing with similar crew issues as us. The arrival of new ships acted as an impetus to recruitment, in the short term at least, until other issues found their ships tied up in port too.
                  Thing is, the longer we wait the more expensive it becomes to introduce the capability, but once we have it, the easier it is to maintain it.
                  For now, everything hangs on the CoDF report, still possibly 2 weeks from the Ministers desk.

                  Comment


                  • This is the document on TIMF website from 2014:
                    https://theirishmaritimeforumorg.fil...and-nation.pdf

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                      That's the one. Much appreciated.
                      The Irish Maritime Forum was the group who put forward this proposal (and other things). Unfortunately the designs mentioned are obsolete now 20 years later, but the figures mentioned are still a reasonable guideline.
                      Remember NZ (who already operated Dive support, Research, Oiler and Frigates) in the early 2000s decided to embark on an expensive plan to provide 4 CPV, 2 HPV and 1 MRV, while dealing with similar crew issues as us. The arrival of new ships acted as an impetus to recruitment, in the short term at least, until other issues found their ships tied up in port too.
                      Thing is, the longer we wait the more expensive it becomes to introduce the capability, but once we have it, the easier it is to maintain it.
                      The original article from an Cosantoir (Page 15-17)

                      https://www.dfmagazine.ie/dfmag_pdfs...l_Aug_1999.pdf
                      It was the year of fire...the year of destruction...the year we took back what was ours.
                      It was the year of rebirth...the year of great sadness...the year of pain...and the year of joy.
                      It was a new age...It was the end of history.
                      It was the year everything changed.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by CTU View Post
                        The original article from an Cosantoir (Page 15-17)

                        https://www.dfmagazine.ie/dfmag_pdfs...l_Aug_1999.pdf
                        What really strikes me about this article is how candid it is. I only started reading an Cosantoir many years after this issue was published and all articles these days are pretty much a love letter to the defence forces.

                        I can't remember reading any article critical of defence policy and procurement in the magazine within the last ten years.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Auldsod View Post
                          What really strikes me about this article is how candid it is. I only started reading an Cosantoir many years after this issue was published and all articles these days are pretty much a love letter to the defence forces.

                          I can't remember reading any article critical of defence policy and procurement in the magazine within the last ten years.
                          Possibly the unintentional consequence of the DF Info officer de facto editing the publication. Hard to be objective when your priority is to sell the organisation.
                          For now, everything hangs on the CoDF report, still possibly 2 weeks from the Ministers desk.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                            Possibly the unintentional consequence of the DF Info officer de facto editing the publication. Hard to be objective when your priority is to sell the organisation.
                            Or them not being written

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                              Or them not being written
                              There is no shortage of well written policy proposals in other similar journals. The Webinars show the quality of what is available. I guess An Cosantoir just wasn't in the line of sight to reach the right audience any more.
                              For now, everything hangs on the CoDF report, still possibly 2 weeks from the Ministers desk.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                                There is no shortage of well written policy proposals in other similar journals. The Webinars show the quality of what is available. I guess An Cosantoir just wasn't in the line of sight to reach the right audience any more.
                                Fair point. Numbers of subscribers must have well dwindled by point it ended its print room. I can't imagine many young service members or those considering joining would have had uch interest in a subscription.

                                Any journals you'd recommend? Publications put out by RACO etc is it?

                                Comment

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