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  • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post

    If Reserves were guaranteed JOB security by law and at least by undertakings with employers, then they should be available by 4/6 weeks notice. If reserves only turn up for holidays then the Reserve concept is a waste of time particularly for those of the PDF appointed as minders. We need them to augment or replace manpower.
    The point of the reserve is to provide provide surge manpower in time of emergency or even war. It shouldn't be to fill the gaps when it comes to peacetime operation of the DF. If that's the expectation, of course it's not going to work. If reservists are pulled from their employers on 1-2 months notice to fill short/medium terms gaps in manning, you're not going to have a reserve much longer.

    I would rate Covid as such an emergency scenario, the difficulty in manning ships would fall below a requirement for compulsory call up. Well below it.

    It goes far beyond just job security (which is important, don't get me wrong). Most reservists are in demanding civilian careers and whilst you legally can give them job security, being pulled repeatedly away from their primary employment at short notice will devastate their progression in their civilian jobs.

    Take a look at how the UK do this.

    - Most reservists still on the same one evening a week, one weekend a month model with two weeks annual training. Some of course do much much more.
    - When reservists are activated, it is a very formal process and generally for a deployment.
    - Reservists can elect to serve on a full time contract with the forces with full pay parity and benefits. The length of the contract is defined and agreed in advance and can even be multi year in duration. Example, they can't be called up for six months and then sent home after four weeks unneeded.
    - When reservists are called up for a deployment, their pay is matched up to their civilian employer (up to certain limits). This would be important too. The mortgage still needs to be paid.

    Personally, if I was to spend any more that a few weeks with the DF, it would need to be preplanned, of multi month duration and I'd require both job security and top up pay to pay the bills.
    Auldsod
    Sergeant Major
    Last edited by Auldsod; 24 November 2021, 10:04.

    Comment


    • I would be in favour of the entire organisation seeing a dramatic increase in pay at entry level. It tends to level off the longer you are in and the further up the ladder you climb.
      However, you can't expect to attract a DE from the private sector and chuck him/her in at the same point on the ladder as someone without their skills, bu this is what we have been doing.
      A civvy marine eng who has been working as 3rd eng will have years more hands on experience than the recently qualified NS Sub Lt he will be sharing a pay grade with. There is one I know of who travelled the world, initially on ferries, later on Cruise liners, who is now manning a Naval MCR.
      A civvy deck officer, who may have been a 3rd officer on a merchant ship has millions more sea miles under his belt than the NS Nav officer he will share a pay grade with. I know one (recently lost back to civvy st) who after a childhood spent sailing, completed a civvy cadetship and got his qualification aboard the British Antarctic Survey vessel. He came to the navy as a Red Nose, Moss Back-Shellback. To my knowledge he is still the only one. His peers at rank may have got as far as the med, if they were lucky!
      We used to take DE Trades also. Someone with a technological trade would be dropped in at LS after a short marching and saluting course, and soon become a PO/ERA or PO/EA. However, in recent cases, those who did so entered as an A/Mech. Their trade was not taken into account until they had put in time as a dogsbody, often supervised by those with less qualifications, usually caught for guard duties at weekends. A great way so show someone you appreciate them!

      The Rep. Organisations are on record that the patrol allowance of the NS is far below the PS counterparts. Being at sea in all weathers is the hardest part of the job. The least govt could do is reward those who are willing to do it. current PDA is taxed heavily.
      I just watched the Mar Inst smaller research ship head out to sea. It'll be back in later on. Its crew get €270/day before tax for going to sea on top of their normal wage. The Crew of an NS ship will get €55 before tax.
      For now, everything hangs on the CoDF report, which is published, but after discussion with parties in government will probably commence being implemented in May or June.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
        I would be in favour of the entire organisation seeing a dramatic increase in pay at entry level. It tends to level off the longer you are in and the further up the ladder you climb.
        However, you can't expect to attract a DE from the private sector and chuck him/her in at the same point on the ladder as someone without their skills, bu this is what we have been doing.
        A civvy marine eng who has been working as 3rd eng will have years more hands on experience than the recently qualified NS Sub Lt he will be sharing a pay grade with. There is one I know of who travelled the world, initially on ferries, later on Cruise liners, who is now manning a Naval MCR.
        A civvy deck officer, who may have been a 3rd officer on a merchant ship has millions more sea miles under his belt than the NS Nav officer he will share a pay grade with. I know one (recently lost back to civvy st) who after a childhood spent sailing, completed a civvy cadetship and got his qualification aboard the British Antarctic Survey vessel. He came to the navy as a Red Nose, Moss Back-Shellback. To my knowledge he is still the only one. His peers at rank may have got as far as the med, if they were lucky!
        We used to take DE Trades also. Someone with a technological trade would be dropped in at LS after a short marching and saluting course, and soon become a PO/ERA or PO/EA. However, in recent cases, those who did so entered as an A/Mech. Their trade was not taken into account until they had put in time as a dogsbody, often supervised by those with less qualifications, usually caught for guard duties at weekends. A great way so show someone you appreciate them!

        The Rep. Organisations are on record that the patrol allowance of the NS is far below the PS counterparts. Being at sea in all weathers is the hardest part of the job. The least govt could do is reward those who are willing to do it. current PDA is taxed heavily.
        I just watched the Mar Inst smaller research ship head out to sea. It'll be back in later on. Its crew get €270/day before tax for going to sea on top of their normal wage. The Crew of an NS ship will get €55 before tax.
        Great points all. I don't have any knowledge of the DE system but it would make sense for a new officer to be appointed at a rank relevant to their experience up to say Lieutenant and also adjust their initial point of entry on the pay scale. Makes immense sense from a recruitment point of view but would there be any friction with incumbents as all logic aside, there would be those who would still call it unfair whatever the prior experience?

        Same goes for trades too. It seems there is a push pull relationship between trying to get experienced blood into the organisation to fill gaps but also ensuring that the new entrants don't get a 'free ride' so as to keep the old salts happy. Seems like a radical new approach is needed.

        On the patrol duty, 270 p/d does still seem exceptionally high. I'm guessing a doubling of the current allowance (or more) would go a long way to remediating current retention?
        Auldsod
        Sergeant Major
        Last edited by Auldsod; 24 November 2021, 11:17.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Auldsod View Post

          On the patrol duty, 270 p/d does still seem exceptionally high. I'm guessing a doubling of the current allowance (or more) would go a long way to remediating current retention?
          €270 - BEFORE TAX is exceptionally low.

          It works out at €16.87 per hour BEFORE TAX for overtime - i.e hours worked over the normal 8hr work day.

          The national minimum wage is €10.20 per hour.

          If the highest allowance is exceptionally low, then the naval service PDA is beyond insulting, it is exploitation.
          TangoSierra
          2/Lt
          Last edited by TangoSierra; 24 November 2021, 17:18.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by TangoSierra View Post

            €270 - BEFORE TAX is exceptionally low.

            It works out at €16.87 per hour BEFORE TAX for overtime - i.e hours worked over the normal 8hr work day.

            The national minimum wage is €10.20 per hour.

            If the highest allowance is exceptionally low, then the naval service PDA is beyond insulting, it is exploitation.
            Quick question? What would you recommend as an adequate PDA?

            Assuming we include core pay, MSA, PDA and naval allowance for an A/B at the top of their scale and factoring in 180 sea days in a year at EUR 270 per day....

            That's annual pre-tax pay of €89,221.

            Now if we increase that 'exploitive' 270 to say 400 per day, you're looking at pre-tax pay of €112,261.

            Factor in increased rank, tech pay and pension and benefits cost....

            Now we can all agree that there needs to be substantial change here but if you think the government will agree to pay 100k plus to every seagoing person in the NS, you're in dreamland.
            Auldsod
            Sergeant Major
            Last edited by Auldsod; 24 November 2021, 17:48.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by TangoSierra View Post

              €270 - BEFORE TAX is exceptionally low.

              It works out at €16.87 per hour BEFORE TAX for overtime - i.e hours worked over the normal 8hr work day.

              The national minimum wage is €10.20 per hour.

              If the highest allowance is exceptionally low, then the naval service PDA is beyond insulting, it is exploitation.
              It's just one of many insulting payments members of the DF get for their service. Don't forget the guy/girl doing 24hr on a saturday is getting 1 euro an hour for their trouble.
              For now, everything hangs on the CoDF report, which is published, but after discussion with parties in government will probably commence being implemented in May or June.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Auldsod View Post

                Quick question? What would you recommend as an adequate PDA?

                Assuming we include core pay, MSA, PDA and naval allowance for an A/B at the top of their scale and factoring in 180 sea days in a year at EUR 270 per day....

                That's annual pre-tax pay of €89,221.

                Now if we increase that 'exploitive' 270 to say 400 per day, you're looking at pre-tax pay of €112,261.

                Factor in increased rank, tech pay and pension and benefits cost....

                Now we can all agree that there needs to be substantial change here but if you think the government will agree to pay 100k plus to every seagoing person in the NS, you're in dreamland.
                The problem is the AB is only doing 180 days at sea in the first place. The reality is much higher at present. Back from Patrol on a friday, back out covering an appointment on another ship the following wednesday!
                I understand those on the Customs cutter get an at sea allowance of €10k a year(before tax), plus civil service overnight rate for days at sea. (147/n)
                That works out at €170 a night or thereabouts.
                For now, everything hangs on the CoDF report, which is published, but after discussion with parties in government will probably commence being implemented in May or June.

                Comment


                • The NS has current DE Competitions for:

                  S/Lt Electrical / Electronic Engineer
                  S/Lt NWC
                  S/Lt MEO
                  L/RRT
                  L/HA
                  L/EA
                  L/ERA
                  A/Chef

                  Comment


                  • While the wages are completely inadequate I’d imagine that a major push factor is that even when they are supposed to be ashore or at home they can find themselves at sea

                    the cause being inadequate strength and establishment

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by DeV View Post
                      While the wages are completely inadequate I’d imagine that a major push factor is that even when they are supposed to be ashore or at home they can find themselves at sea

                      the cause being inadequate strength and establishment
                      That's a downward spiralling scenario. The more people leave, the more the rest will have to carry the can, then they leave too, And those remaining have to carry the can.. etc.
                      For now, everything hangs on the CoDF report, which is published, but after discussion with parties in government will probably commence being implemented in May or June.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post

                        It's just one of many insulting payments members of the DF get for their service. Don't forget the guy/girl doing 24hr on a saturday is getting 1 euro an hour for their trouble.
                        The person on 24hr guard duty is getting paid MORE than the NS PDA. It shows how incredibly exploitative PDA is.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Auldsod View Post

                          Quick question? What would you recommend as an adequate PDA?

                          Assuming we include core pay, MSA, PDA and naval allowance for an A/B at the top of their scale and factoring in 180 sea days in a year at EUR 270 per day....

                          That's annual pre-tax pay of €89,221.

                          Now if we increase that 'exploitive' 270 to say 400 per day, you're looking at pre-tax pay of €112,261.

                          Factor in increased rank, tech pay and pension and benefits cost....

                          Now we can all agree that there needs to be substantial change here but if you think the government will agree to pay 100k plus to every seagoing person in the NS, you're in dreamland.
                          Yet, the government are content with paying DF personnel €100 per day TAX FREE while on UN and EU missions for 180 days, in some cases 365 days at a time.

                          NS personnel go to sea where the risk to life is just as great as any UN/EU mission. They do so outside the territorial limits of the state, armed, and in the service of peace, stability and the exercise of foreign policy.

                          Why is Patrol Duty Allowance NOT at the same level?

                          "But the UN pay for it!" - people might say. Yet the government still pay this rate for EU missions.

                          The European Maritime Fisheries Fund 2014-2020 and the replacement to it, the EMFAF, allows for the fund to be used to pay personnel if it goes towards Fisheries Enforcement and other related duties, not just for equipment.

                          Why has no one within Government and the DoD/DF not looked at this?


                          An Able Rate gets paid €565.07 per week which includes MSA after 3 years in the rank or after 4 years service in most cases.

                          That's €29,383.64 per year GROSS.

                          + 180 days PDA at €270 gross per day: €48,600 GROSS

                          Total: €77,983.64 per year GROSS.

                          That works out at €46,677 per year AFTER TAX

                          Then subtract extortionate rents, cost of living, heating, heaven forbid dependents, child care etc etc.

                          oh yeah, you are also away from your family for 180 days per year - almost every year.



                          The current REALITY:



                          That's €29,383.64 per year GROSS.

                          + 180 days PDA at €55 gross per day: €9,900 GROSS

                          Total: €38, 283 per year GROSS.

                          That works out at €28,423 per year AFTER TAX

                          Then subtract extortionate rents, cost of living, heating, heaven forbid dependents, child care etc etc.

                          oh yeah, you are also away from your family for 180 days per year - almost every year.
                          TangoSierra
                          2/Lt
                          Last edited by TangoSierra; 24 November 2021, 22:22.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post

                            That's a downward spiralling scenario. The more people leave, the more the rest will have to carry the can, then they leave too, And those remaining have to carry the can.. etc.
                            because not a single member of the General Staff, DoD SecGen or Minister will say - STOP.

                            Mr Coveney said he understood there was “pressure on the system” because of the personnel crisis and this was particularly impacting the naval service and overseas missions.

                            However, he added that Ireland has important commitments to UN overseas missions and while a review is ongoing on these, he insisted we need to maintain our internationally-renowned peacekeeping efforts abroad. The Defence Forces first contribution to peacekeeping was in 1958 and it is currently involved in 16 peacekeeping missions worldwide. - https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40751283.html
                            Cancelled navy patrols treble this year - https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40751973.html

                            In October 2020, a fire broke out on LÉ Niamh while she was undergoing routine maintenance at Cork Dockyard, Rushbrooke.
                            When - not if - a catastrophic loss of life incident happens involving a naval vessel and the accident report is published, the above fire incident report will be recorded as a "warning flag" event on the path to it similar to paragraph 1.17.11 of the R116 report.
                            TangoSierra
                            2/Lt
                            Last edited by TangoSierra; 24 November 2021, 22:42.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post

                              That's a downward spiralling scenario. The more people leave, the more the rest will have to carry the can, then they leave too, And those remaining have to carry the can.. etc.
                              yes

                              strength obviously is an vitally important figure but establishment is also important

                              The establishment was set at 1,144 (as recommended by PwC) to run 7 ships

                              the ECF set the establishment as 1,094 to run 8 ships

                              Since then a 9th ship has been delivered and the establishment is still 1,094

                              Even if strength matched establishment the NS wouldn’t have enough personnel

                              the AC and army are also the same



                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by TangoSierra View Post

                                because not a single member of the General Staff, DoD SecGen or Minister will say - STOP.



                                Cancelled navy patrols treble this year - https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40751973.html
                                So its all about looking good internationally, regardless of the danger we continue to put our ill equipped troops in?
                                He is deluded if he believes the NS has the capability to carry out their role in the current circumstances.
                                For now, everything hangs on the CoDF report, which is published, but after discussion with parties in government will probably commence being implemented in May or June.

                                Comment

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