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  • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
    And the PAST is not comforting. DOD were happy to let the NS run down to NO ships in early 1970's and were saved by urgent purchases of CMS's and an EU funded building programme for the P20/P21 new builds, which only worked because we had Cornelius Verholme on our doorstep. With the imminent closure of Cathal Brugha Bks. we will also have East Coast NSR cast adrift. Right now Defence is swamped and becoming homeless.
    Its not a vote winner. The more they let it run down, the more people leave, the less of a vote winner it will be. Kildare South is the only place where the military family vote has had an impact at election time, which is why we have a former ARW officer as a TD (though his medical credentials also helped). The DF is invisible to the majority of the population. Government knows this.
    However if we had NATO fighters based in Shannon defending our airspace, or the RN refuelling in Fenit before embarking on another Anti Sub patrol off the west coast, then you'd have people protesting on the streets.
    Maybe that's what's needed for the Irish public to have a mature debate on defence and what Neutrality means?
    For now, everything hangs on the CoDF report, still possibly 2 weeks from the Ministers desk.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post

      Its not a vote winner. The more they let it run down, the more people leave, the less of a vote winner it will be. Kildare South is the only place where the military family vote has had an impact at election time, which is why we have a former ARW officer as a TD (though his medical credentials also helped). The DF is invisible to the majority of the population. Government knows this.
      However if we had NATO fighters based in Shannon defending our airspace, or the RN refuelling in Fenit before embarking on another Anti Sub patrol off the west coast, then you'd have people protesting on the streets.
      Maybe that's what's needed for the Irish public to have a mature debate on defence and what Neutrality means?
      It's never going to happen though.

      Unfortunately, the only way anything is ever going to change with the public is if we get caught with our pants down when it comes to a national defence or terrorist incident.

      OR

      The Government of the day decides to start funding defence despite it not being a vote winner.

      Neither likely.

      There are 100 other debates that people would rather be having.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Auldsod View Post

        It's never going to happen though.

        Unfortunately, the only way anything is ever going to change with the public is if we get caught with our pants down when it comes to a national defence or terrorist incident.
        We have been repeatedly in the recent past

        Overseas (unable to provide full battalions)
        Air Ambulance (unable to provide at night)
        EAS (unable to provide at times)
        RESCUE 116 (unable to provide T/C (although not tasked by Government to provide 24/7)
        COVID19 (additional medical personnel, field hospitals)
        Congo (troop withdrawal)
        Afghanistan (citizen withdrawal)
        Ethiopia (citizen withdrawal)
        Fisheries Protection & maritime patrol (unable to put ships to sea, EU had to send a contracted vessel)

        Comment


        • Originally posted by DeV View Post

          We have been repeatedly in the recent past

          Overseas (unable to provide full battalions)
          Air Ambulance (unable to provide at night)
          EAS (unable to provide at times)
          RESCUE 116 (unable to provide T/C (although not tasked by Government to provide 24/7)
          COVID19 (additional medical personnel, field hospitals)
          Congo (troop withdrawal)
          Afghanistan (citizen withdrawal)
          Ethiopia (citizen withdrawal)
          Fisheries Protection & maritime patrol (unable to put ships to sea, EU had to send a contracted vessel)
          Average Joe Public would have only an awareness of some of these issues.

          Rescue 116: Most media focus on navigational issues and the human element. Not lack of top cover.

          Covid 19: DF being widely praised for support. Not much being raised in wider media about impacts to resources.

          Afghanistan: Attention was drawn to lack of airlift capacity here but was overshadowed by general scale of events and ranger wing involvement.

          Peripheral articles in the broadsheets and online don't translate into widespread recognition of DF issues sadly. I doubt the final report will make much of a splash in the media when released.
          Last edited by Auldsod; 25 November 2021, 14:41.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Auldsod View Post

            Average Joe Public would have only an awareness of some of these issues.

            Rescue 116: Most media focus on navigational issues and the human element. Not lack of top cover.

            Covid 19: DF being widely praised for support. Not much being raised in wider media about impacts to resources.

            Afghanistan: Attention was drawn to lack of airlift capacity here but was overshadowed by general scale of events and ranger wing involvement.

            Peripheral articles in the broadsheets and online don't translate into widespread recognition of DF issues sadly. I doubt the final report will make much of a splash in the media when released.
            Wasn’t suggesting they did, these have all been areas in the last 4-5 years or so where the DF have not been able to respond to the level they should have been (and none of that is the DF’s fault

            i left out a major one the:
            HSE Cyber attack



            Comment


            • Originally posted by DeV View Post

              Wasn’t suggesting they did, these have all been areas in the last 4-5 years or so where the DF have not been able to respond to the level they should have been (and none of that is the DF’s fault

              i left out a major one the:
              HSE Cyber attack


              Not at all the DF's fault. All down to lack of investment and interest. Everyone I know outside of the DF is barely aware of defence matters. At worst, the DF is a waste of money and at best, a curiosity.

              I think cyber security will be a large gap called out in the report.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Auldsod View Post

                Not at all the DF's fault. All down to lack of investment and interest. Everyone I know outside of the DF is barely aware of defence matters. At worst, the DF is a waste of money and at best, a curiosity.

                I think cyber security will be a large gap called out in the report.
                Based on the minutes so far, HR and Air also seems to be where there are major deficiencies. All solutions will involve dramatic investment, and long term spending increases, as well as some difficult political decisions.
                For now, everything hangs on the CoDF report, still possibly 2 weeks from the Ministers desk.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post

                  Based on the minutes so far, HR and Air also seems to be where there are major deficiencies. All solutions will involve dramatic investment, and long term spending increases, as well as some difficult political decisions.
                  Well that's an industrial shredder needed so then...

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by DeV View Post

                    We have been repeatedly in the recent past

                    Overseas (unable to provide full battalions)
                    Air Ambulance (unable to provide at night)
                    EAS (unable to provide at times)
                    RESCUE 116 (unable to provide T/C (although not tasked by Government to provide 24/7)
                    COVID19 (additional medical personnel, field hospitals)
                    Congo (troop withdrawal)
                    Afghanistan (citizen withdrawal)
                    Ethiopia (citizen withdrawal)
                    Fisheries Protection & maritime patrol (unable to put ships to sea, EU had to send a contracted vessel)
                    The focus by many of the NS as a "Fishery Protection" agency is not doing the service any favours.
                    The SFPA are the body ultimately responsible for FP.
                    The NS has an SLA with many government organisations including the SFPA.
                    Maritime Security is the primary day to day role of the NS, fisheries being a secondary role.
                    Hopefully the CoD will focus on this and make it plainly clear that the SFPA need to step up and do what it is there to do.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by A/TEL View Post

                      The focus by many of the NS as a "Fishery Protection" agency is not doing the service any favours.
                      The SFPA are the body ultimately responsible for FP.
                      The NS has an SLA with many government organisations including the SFPA.
                      Maritime Security is the primary day to day role of the NS, fisheries being a secondary role.
                      Hopefully the CoD will focus on this and make it plainly clear that the SFPA need to step up and do what it is there to do.
                      can’t do either if can’t put to sea

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post

                        Based on the minutes so far, HR and Air also seems to be where there are major deficiencies. All solutions will involve dramatic investment, and long term spending increases, as well as some difficult political decisions.
                        HR is the most critical issue

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by A/TEL View Post

                          The focus by many of the NS as a "Fishery Protection" agency is not doing the service any favours.
                          The SFPA are the body ultimately responsible for FP.
                          The NS has an SLA with many government organisations including the SFPA.
                          Maritime Security is the primary day to day role of the NS, fisheries being a secondary role.
                          Hopefully the CoD will focus on this and make it plainly clear that the SFPA need to step up and do what it is there to do.
                          The SFPA are in a heap themselves. - https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireac...5-10-20_en.pdf

                          Comment


                          • The CoD should have absolutely nothing to do with the SFPA or how it works. It has an SLA with Defence for at Sea interventions and that's it. Agencies like SFPA and ICG were set up on a Picture Book principle all gloss and no assets but another layer of ethereal control. They are badly staffed with a make it up as you go along planning ethic. Defence on the other hand are being unpicked by it's own department , and is constantly plugging holes in fulfilling it's daily tasks. CoD have more than enough load in sorting defence.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                              The CoD should have absolutely nothing to do with the SFPA or how it works. It has an SLA with Defence for at Sea interventions and that's it. Agencies like SFPA and ICG were set up on a Picture Book principle all gloss and no assets but another layer of ethereal control. They are badly staffed with a make it up as you go along planning ethic. Defence on the other hand are being unpicked by it's own department , and is constantly plugging holes in fulfilling it's daily tasks. CoD have more than enough load in sorting defence.
                              It's seem to be a running theme in Ireland in regards to the setting up of Regulatory Agencies to meet EU Rules, set it up on paper, staff it to below minimum requirements, hope that the EU don't notice and when the do notice, spend money trying to defend it in the courts and then pay the fine with promise to increase staff and resources (only for a few years though, by which time it will be back down to below minimums due to staff leaving and be replaced by the promised "Extra" staff, resulting in no gain in staff) and start the cycle again.
                              It was the year of fire...the year of destruction...the year we took back what was ours.
                              It was the year of rebirth...the year of great sadness...the year of pain...and the year of joy.
                              It was a new age...It was the end of history.
                              It was the year everything changed.

                              Comment


                              • A bit grim really. I saw the smaller operational OPV entering harbour yesterday 27/10. The current poll of AIS matches the early days of 1960.'s with a zero roll call for ships at sea.

                                Comment

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