manning levels, the future.

[DeV]

So its all about looking good internationally, regardless of the danger we continue to put our ill equipped troops in?
He is deluded if he believes the NS has the capability to carry out their role in the current circumstances.

The EU has already had words about fisheries enforcement on landing imagine when they have words about ships & aircraft (which they helped pay for) not being used due to lack of crews

[Sparky42]

When - not if - a catastrophic loss of life incident happens involving a naval vessel and the accident report is published, the above fire incident report will be recorded as a "warning flag" event on the path to it similar to paragraph 1.17.11 of the R116 report.

Wasn't she in dock hands for that incident?

[TangoSierra]

The EU has already had words about fisheries enforcement on landing imagine when they have words about ships & aircraft (which they helped pay for) not being used due to lack of crews

They already have. The EU Court now has three reasoned opinions against it because of lack of fisheries enforcement at sea by the State.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40744797.html

Europe takes action against Ireland over dumping unwanted fish in the sea

MON, 15 NOV, 2021 - 19:37
PÁDRAIG HOAREMON

[TangoSierra]

Wasn't she in dock hands for that incident?

No. Now imagine what the incidents will be like when a ship is at sea.

[TangoSierra]

Yet, the government are content with paying DF personnel €100 per day TAX FREE while on UN and EU missions for 180 days, in some cases 365 days at a time.

NS personnel go to sea where the risk to life is just as great as any UN/EU mission. They do so outside the territorial limits of the state, armed, and in the service of peace, stability and the exercise of foreign policy.

Why is Patrol Duty Allowance NOT at the same level?

"But the UN pay for it!" - people might say. Yet the government still pay this rate for EU missions.

The European Maritime Fisheries Fund 2014-2020 and the replacement to it, the EMFAF, allows for the fund to be used to pay personnel if it goes towards Fisheries Enforcement and other related duties, not just for equipment.

Why has no one within Government and the DoD/DF not looked at this?

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-cont...01.0001.01.ENG

(10)

The MFF 2021-2027 provides that the Union budget is to continue to support fisheries and maritime policies. The EMFAF budget should amount, in current prices, to EUR 6 108 000 000. EMFAF resources should be split between shared management and direct and indirect management. EUR 5 311 000 000 should be allocated to support under shared management and EUR 797 000 000 to support under direct and indirect management. In order to ensure stability, in particular with regard to the achievement of the objectives of the CFP, the definition of national allocations under shared management for the 2021-2027 programming period should be based on the 2014-2020 shares under Regulation (EU) No 508/2014 of the European Parliament and of the Council on the European Maritime and Fisheries Fund (8) (the ‘EMFF’). Specific amounts should be reserved for the outermost regions, for control and enforcement, and for collection and processing of data for fisheries management and scientific purposes, while amounts for certain investments in fishing vessels and for permanent and temporary cessation of fishing activities should be capped.

50)

With regard to security and defence, improved border protection and maritime security are essential. Under the European Union Maritime Security Strategy adopted by the Council of the European Union on 24 June 2014 and its Action Plan adopted on 16 December 2014, information sharing and the European border and coast guard cooperation between the European Fisheries Control Agency, the European Maritime Safety Agency and the European Border and Coast Guard Agency are key to deliver on those objectives. The EMFAF should therefore support maritime surveillance and coast guard cooperation under both shared and direct management, including by purchasing items for multipurpose maritime operations. It should also allow the relevant agencies to implement support in the field of maritime surveillance and security through indirect management.

[TangoSierra]

The EU has already had words about fisheries enforcement on landing imagine when they have words about ships & aircraft (which they helped pay for) not being used due to lack of crews

(18)

In order to address the specific conditions of the CFP referred to in Regulation (EU) No 1380/2013 and to contribute to compliance with the rules of the CFP, provisions additional to the rules on interruption, suspension and financial corrections as set out in Regulation (EU) 2021/1060 should be laid down. Where a Member State has failed to comply with its obligations under the CFP, or where the Commission has evidence that suggests such lack of compliance, the Commission should, as a precautionary measure, be allowed to interrupt payment deadlines. In addition to the possibility of interruption of the payment deadline, and in order to avoid an evident risk of paying out ineligible expenditure, the Commission should be allowed to suspend payments and impose financial corrections in cases of serious non-compliance with the rules of the CFP by a Member State

[Auldsod]

Yet, the government are content with paying DF personnel €100 per day TAX FREE while on UN and EU missions for 180 days, in some cases 365 days at a time.

NS personnel go to sea where the risk to life is just as great as any UN/EU mission. They do so outside the territorial limits of the state, armed, and in the service of peace, stability and the exercise of foreign policy.

Why is Patrol Duty Allowance NOT at the same level?

"But the UN pay for it!" - people might say. Yet the government still pay this rate for EU missions.

The European Maritime Fisheries Fund 2014-2020 and the replacement to it, the EMFAF, allows for the fund to be used to pay personnel if it goes towards Fisheries Enforcement and other related duties, not just for equipment.

Why has no one within Government and the DoD/DF not looked at this?


An Able Rate gets paid €565.07 per week which includes MSA after 3 years in the rank or after 4 years service in most cases.

That's €29,383.64 per year GROSS.

+ 180 days PDA at €270 gross per day: €48,600 GROSS

Total: €77,983.64 per year GROSS.

That works out at €46,677 per year AFTER TAX

Then subtract extortionate rents, cost of living, heating, heaven forbid dependents, child care etc etc.

oh yeah, you are also away from your family for 180 days per year - almost every year.



The current REALITY:



That's €29,383.64 per year GROSS.

+ 180 days PDA at €55 gross per day: €9,900 GROSS

Total: €38, 283 per year GROSS.

That works out at €28,423 per year AFTER TAX

Then subtract extortionate rents, cost of living, heating, heaven forbid dependents, child care etc etc.

oh yeah, you are also away from your family for 180 days per year - almost every year.

For clarity, I took the current post 2013 A/B wage at a point in the middle of the current scale and added in naval allowance. Hence the higher annual pay amount.

I do agree with you on nearly every point. There does need to be an increase in take home pay and allowances is the way to do it. It just may be messy on the implementation. Increase PDA to 100 or so and make the allowance non taxable. Straight away a solid increase in take home pay but actual weekly wage rates which are the comparator with other roles in the public service stay the same.

We may all agree that PDA should be far higher and we can compare to niche elements of the public sector where those at sea are well looked after but we have to focus on what's possible and probable. It just takes one civil servant on Google checking what the RN get and they straight away have an overly simplistic argument that pay is already good despite the reality on the ground.

The allowance should compensate those for the long hard days away from family literally on the clock 24/7. Rent, childcare, etc needs to be paid but those costs are faced by everyone in the economy. A lot of people are struggling right now.

I'll be very disappointed if the CoD is silent on pay and allowances for the NS.

[TangoSierra]

For clarity, I took the current post 2013 A/B wage at a point in the middle of the current scale and added in naval allowance. Hence the higher annual pay amount.

So did I, https://assets.gov.ie/36656/a468721e...054269de19.pdf

[TangoSierra]

I'll be very disappointed if the CoD is silent on pay and allowances for the NS.

The NS cant wait till then. It could be too late by the time it even gets read.

[CTU]

because not a single member of the General Staff, DoD SecGen or Minister will say - STOP.

When the Minister of state with special responsibilities for Wexford, I mean Defence was in charge, the DoD seemed to be happy enough treading water in regards to the white paper projects etc... Now with the CoDF ongoing, it seems to me DoD are using it as an excuse to do SFA, even in the middle of a national emergency!, while the Minister is in Iveagh House patting himself on the back for the UNSC seat, looking for a yacht race, while also dealing with Brexit.

When a country like Ireland has TWO government departments with TWO Different Full Time Government Ministers looking after Eductional matters, while Defence is a part time portfolio lumped in with Foreign Affairs (and a Jr Portfolio lumped in with Gaeltacht Affairs and Sport) , you can see where the priorities are!

[TangoSierra]

When the Minister of state with special responsibilities for Wexford, I mean Defence was in charge, the DoD seemed to be happy enough treading water in regards to the white paper projects etc... Now with the CoDF ongoing, it seems to me DoD are using it as an excuse to do SFA, even in the middle of a national emergency!, while the Minister is in Iveagh House patting himself on the back for the UNSC seat, looking for a yacht race, while also dealing with Brexit.

When a country like Ireland has TWO government departments with TWO Different Full Time Government Ministers looking after Eductional matters, while Defence is a part time portfolio lumped in with Foreign Affairs (and a Jr Portfolio lumped in with Gaeltacht Affairs and Sport) , you can see where the priorities are!

Yet, without a Navy or Maritime Surveillance Squadron from the Air Corps, the Dept of Agriculture, Revenue, Justice, Environment and Transport will all get hammered by the EU Council in the way of negative reasoned opinions, withheld or withdrawn funding and fines for breach of EU Law.

[CTU]

Yet, without a Navy or Maritime Surveillance Squadron from the Air Corps, the Dept of Agriculture, Revenue, Justice, Environment and Transport will all get hammered by the EU Council in the way of negative reasoned opinions, withheld or withdrawn funding and fines for breach of EU Law.

And I wouldn't be surprised if someone in DoF/DoPER came out and said it would be cheaper to outsource to the cheapest bidder and pay the fines on any short commings from the EU, then properly fund the Defence Forces!

[DeV]

The NS cant wait till then. It could be too late by the time it even gets read.

We are way past too late, media reports this week say only 1 vessel could put to sea this week due to manning.

[Auldsod]

The NS cant wait till then. It could be too late by the time it even gets read.

Agreed again. Could be another year of 'reviews' and 'committees' even after this gets released. Worrying times.

[ancientmariner]

And the PAST is not comforting. DOD were happy to let the NS run down to NO ships in early 1970's and were saved by urgent purchases of CMS's and an EU funded building programme for the P20/P21 new builds, which only worked because we had Cornelius Verholme on our doorstep. With the imminent closure of Cathal Brugha Bks. we will also have East Coast NSR cast adrift. Right now Defence is swamped and becoming homeless.