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  • Originally posted by DeV View Post
    Link working now

    Thing is NS manning levels were even bad in the good times

    Things like the following don’t help:
    - insufficient establishment for 9 ship navy
    - lack of Accomodiation ashore so crews have to sleep on the ships when tied up
    - the 2 year shore rotation including time at sea
    - Op PONTUS / SOPHIA meaning longer patrols (I’d say there are positives for morale as well)
    - strength not meeting establishment
    You are very right . The proposed strength was based on the rule of three. Like with kit , one on, one spare, and one in the laundry. we recommended 3 crews for each ship with spares been held in sea-going replacements. The outcome was 1 1/2 crews which derails when you run PNCO courses and train recruits, allow for special leave, sickness , overseas attachments etc., etc . Specialists who are singletons on board like Captains, Coxswains, CERA, RRM , SBA,SPO always face early relief duties.

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    • Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
      You are very right . The proposed strength was based on the rule of three. Like with kit , one on, one spare, and one in the laundry. we recommended 3 crews for each ship with spares been held in sea-going replacements. The outcome was 1 1/2 crews which derails when you run PNCO courses and train recruits, allow for special leave, sickness , overseas attachments etc., etc . Specialists who are singletons on board like Captains, Coxswains, CERA, RRM , SBA,SPO always face early relief duties.
      Think what was proposed was 1:1.3 did they get 1:1.5 ?

      That was pre-CRE (and can’t remember the name of the other upper levels set) and pre-9th ship

      Not sure if the establishment was also reduced

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      • Originally posted by DeV View Post
        Think what was proposed was 1:1.3 did they get 1:1.5 ?

        That was pre-CRE (and can’t remember the name of the other upper levels set) and pre-9th ship

        Not sure if the establishment was also reduced
        I am confused, AFAIK the CS4 remains static adding /deleting crew as ships are added or deleted. The strengths are controlled by Finance directives; eg Establishment all ranks: 1200 (say) permitted strength 1080 all ranks. We wanted three full crews for each ship but it turned out a lot less, destroying the 2 years ashore ratio after 12 months at sea.
        Take 9 ships with an average crew of 45, it takes 405 personnel to keep them at sea and another 810 to keep them permanently operational, a total of 1215 seagoing personnel, then add in shore garrison , dockyard, communications, etc. Requirement is around 1400+

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        • Afaik CS4 hasn’t been adjusted for the 9th ship but there is a cross DF review is going on

          At the minute the approved strength matches establishment, there are 3 problems:
          - actual strength doesn’t match establishment
          - establishment is too low
          - establishment and CS4 is disjointed

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          • Originally posted by DeV View Post
            Afaik CS4 hasn’t been adjusted for the 9th ship but there is a cross DF review is going on

            At the minute the approved strength matches establishment, there are 3 problems:
            - actual strength doesn’t match establishment
            - establishment is too low
            - establishment and CS4 is disjointed
            There is no effort to review CS4 as this is firmly controlled by DPER/DoD under ECF.

            CS4 is a work of great fiction. It does not account for Recruits, Cadets, PNCO, SNCO, YO, JC&S, C&S, USAC courses that are run every year both the student numbers and extra staff needed to run them.

            It does not account for R&D and Working Groups.

            And this is before you even think of 600+ overseas, 600+ on UN leave, 600+ in pre deployment training.

            All the above under an umbrella of a completely inadequate overall establishment figure, disproportionate weighting between the three services and a completely farcical defence budget.

            The cherry on top of this sh!t cake is no cabinet minister and a devolved minister for state that is a long lost twin of Ralph wigam.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by TangoSierra View Post
              There is no effort to review CS4 as this is firmly controlled by DPER/DoD under ECF.

              CS4 is a work of great fiction. It does not account for Recruits, Cadets, PNCO, SNCO, YO, JC&S, C&S, USAC courses that are run every year both the student numbers and extra staff needed to run them.

              It does not account for R&D and Working Groups.

              And this is before you even think of 600+ overseas, 600+ on UN leave, 600+ in pre deployment training.

              All the above under an umbrella of a completely inadequate overall establishment figure, disproportionate weighting between the three services and a completely farcical defence budget.

              The cherry on top of this sh!t cake is no cabinet minister and a devolved minister for state that is a long lost twin of Ralph wigam.
              No argument with last two posts. The critical thing about Navies in general, is they are operational, in the field all the time whether it is peace or conflict. Critically they are easy to FU if deprived of personnel or resources.

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              • Originally posted by TangoSierra View Post
                There is no effort to review CS4 as this is firmly controlled by DPER/DoD under ECF.

                CS4 is a work of great fiction. It does not account for Recruits, Cadets, PNCO, SNCO, YO, JC&S, C&S, USAC courses that are run every year both the student numbers and extra staff needed to run them.

                It does not account for R&D and Working Groups.

                And this is before you even think of 600+ overseas, 600+ on UN leave, 600+ in pre deployment training.

                All the above under an umbrella of a completely inadequate overall establishment figure, disproportionate weighting between the three services and a completely farcical defence budget.

                The cherry on top of this sh!t cake is no cabinet minister and a devolved minister for state that is a long lost twin of Ralph wigam.
                Thanks ECF couldn’t think of what it was called, it controls the total numbers for each rank and overall total.

                CS4 tells you the location of each appointment within those total figures for each rank, DoD can move those around with CS4 as required (and go to DPER to seek to change ECF if required).

                It was always that way with regard to courses, overseas etc not being allowed for.

                R&D and WGs are details in addition to appointment, it doesn’t fulltime take them away from their day-to-day work.

                Your absolutely correct in what you say but it was always that way. Maybe because of smaller numbers and possibly increased demands it is more noticeable now.... as well as having lost a lot of experienced officers and NCOs.

                The only allowance that was made as far as I know was there was an overseas element allowed for in the establishment of I think it was around 20 officers (from Col to Capt)

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                • Changing CS4 without modifying ECF is like moving deck chairs on a sinking ship.

                  Because it was always done that way with regards to courses is the reason the DF is in the position it's in.

                  R&D and working groups are fulltime roles. Doing it in addition is forcing burnout on people already doing 4-5 roles. Not giving those positions full time attention leads to piss poor procurement which is rampantly evident in the DF.

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                  • I’m not saying that the ECF (or CS4) shouldn’t change, i’m just Saying changes can be made but not to the level required.

                    Thing is that you’ll never get DPER to agree to having countless numbers of people on courses and overseas you’d possibly get away with recruits and cadets plus maybe longer term appointments overseas. You need to be realistic.

                    The DF needs to play it smarter.

                    They maybe should be but they most definitely aren’t, they are in addition..... in some positions they more or less come with the appointment

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                    • George Bernard Shaw just went active on AIS departing Appledore. Accompanied out the estuary, as always by Lundy Puffin.
                      Hopefully its a lap or two around lundy then home.

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                      • Did 2 high speed runs in either direction (23Kn) and has gone to anchor off the coast of Ilfracombe (as have all before her).

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                        • So after a couple of days doing high speed turns, crash stops (from 23 Kn to 0) and generally shaking her about, P64 is heading back to Appledore. Question is, will they drop off the dockyard crew and head for Cork, or does it require more work?
                          Hopefully the former.

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                          • She's still alongside as far as I can tell, would offloading the yard crew/equipment take that long?

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                            • Originally posted by Sparky42 View Post
                              She's still alongside as far as I can tell, would offloading the yard crew/equipment take that long?
                              Yeah but you have to stock the bar with cheap booze for the trip home.... takes forever!
                              Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                              • Originally posted by na grohmit� View Post
                                So after a couple of days doing high speed turns, crash stops (from 23 Kn to 0) and generally shaking her about, P64 is heading back to Appledore. Question is, will they drop off the dockyard crew and head for Cork, or does it require more work?
                                Hopefully the former.
                                Any updates? Not looking promising.

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