Navy aircraft UK carrier will be sold after three years, no jets.

[Craghopper]

One of the Navy’s new £3 billion aircraft carriers will never carry aircraft and will sail for only three years before being mothballed and possibly sold, ministers will announce on Tuesday

The Government’s Strategic Defence and Security Review will also confirm that Britain will not have an effective “carrier strike” capability – a working aircraft carrier equipped with fighter jets – until 2020.
David Cameron had wanted to scrap one of the two carriers, the largest and most expensive vessels in British naval history, but the review found that contracts signed by the previous government meant that doing so would end up costing the taxpayer more than going ahead with both. As a result, the two carriers will enter service, but one will be mothballed as soon as possible.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...arry-jets.html

[SwiftandSure]

I wonder if the Argentinians are rubbing their hands at this news?

[ZULU]

China / India / Singapore?

Does this mean the F-35s to go with it are scrapped too?

[ollie]

According to the BBC and Sky News, HMS Ark Royal will be decommisioned "almost immediatly" and not as planned in 2014. The surface fleet will be cut from 24 to 19 and the harriers will be axed too.

The army is expected to lose about 7,000 pers and 100 or so tanks/heavy artillery.

The new carriers are also to be designed so that other nations can use them.

Announcements are expected around 3.30.

[X-RayOne]

i think its more the navalised F35 won't be ready when carriers come into service.

silly idea getting rid of the harriers. better to keep them till as long as possible..if only for their unique VTOL capabilities. and they are a very capable fighter / attack aircraft. although different version the US marines aren't throwing theirs away any time soon.

[Aidan]

Not quite Goldie - the RN has commited to buying the VTOL version of the F-35 - the 'B' model, meaning that the two new carriers would be effectively larger more expensive versions of the 'through deck cruisers' they currently use, ski ramp and all.

The BBC has a different take, suggesting that the two carriers will be built and kept, but that one will be modified as a non V/STOL carrier, which would allow the RN to get back in to naval aviation in a 'real' sense, with aircraft comparable to what other countries use - particularly the French. The carriers were designed from the outset to be easily modified, so this is no great leap, and also keeps their options open with regard to purchasing different aircraft, should the F-35B fail to materialise, or become too expensive (both are real possibilities). The B model is limited in a number of ways - range and manouverability particularly, and the RAF would prefer the C model by some margin. An F-35C buy would mean that both carriers could be proper flat decks too.

The Telegraph is the only one with story about two of the new carriers being mothballed - suppose we'll have to wait until this afternoon to see the outcome. The Harriers are a loss to the RN, but only in terms of status in the short term - in reality they're a very limited platform. The only real advantage is that they allow a modicum of fast jet performance from relatively small ships.

[Jungle]

The Falklands should be returning to Argentina any day now.

I doubt this will happen as long as Argentina remains a democracy.
It could happen as a result of diplomatic negociations, but I doubt the UK and Falklanders are ready to go that way.

[Aidan]

Would a negotiated return of the islands, for economic reasons, be a possiblity?

In short, no. And particularly given the fact that recent oil exploration seems to have been quietly positive.

[ZULU]

I'd say that keeping the falklands would be priority given to the natural resources in the area as well as a spring board to Antarctica when a possible exploitation conflict opens up!

[DeV]

Not quite Goldie - the RN has commited to buying the VTOL version of the F-35 - the 'B' model, meaning that the two new carriers would be effectively larger more expensive versions of the 'through deck cruisers' they currently use, ski ramp and all.

The BBC has a different take, suggesting that the two carriers will be built and kept, but that one will be modified as a non V/STOL carrier, which would allow the RN to get back in to naval aviation in a 'real' sense, with aircraft comparable to what other countries use - particularly the French. The carriers were designed from the outset to be easily modified, so this is no great leap, and also keeps their options open with regard to purchasing different aircraft, should the F-35B fail to materialise, or become too expensive (both are real possibilities). The B model is limited in a number of ways - range and manouverability particularly, and the RAF would prefer the C model by some margin. An F-35C buy would mean that both carriers could be proper flat decks too.

The Telegraph is the only one with story about two of the new carriers being mothballed - suppose we'll have to wait until this afternoon to see the outcome. The Harriers are a loss to the RN, but only in terms of status in the short term - in reality they're a very limited platform. The only real advantage is that they allow a modicum of fast jet performance from relatively small ships.

The RN/FAA hasn't had Harriers for a number of years, the Harriers belong to the RAF (as part of Joint Force Harrier) with pilots coming from the RAF and RN/FAA.

Can the F-35B operate from a ski jump? The vektoring is very different from the Harrier.

A VSTOL aircraft carrier should be cheaper than a CTOL carrier but the aircraft are more expensive... a CTOL carrier & aircraft would be cheaper in the long run.

[Barry]

An F-35C buy would mean that both carriers could be proper flat decks too.

There's still a chance that the RN might opt out of the F35 completely and buy F18s or similar. The big advantage of going F18 would be that they could send people over to the US Navy and have pilots and support personnel trained up and ready to go as soon as the airframes arrive (which would be a lot sooner than any F35s will show up)

[Aidan]

There's still a chance that the RN might opt out of the F35 completely and buy F18s or similar

Very much. This has been alluded to repeatedly by the UK Govt (and the previous one), and veiled references to the Rafale have been made in some quarters also (as have references to 'navalising' the Typhoon - probably very difficult). It would give them more capable aircraft, and inter operablity with other forces. USN and French aircraft have cross decked on a number of occasions recently. Must really annoy the RN to have to watch that and not be able to join the party.

The RN/FAA hasn't had Harriers for a number of years, the Harriers belong to the RAF (as part of Joint Force Harrier) with pilots coming from the RAF and RN/FAA.

Which is what I said - with the loss of the Harrier, the RN lose 'their' entire fast jet inventory, the RAF still have much of theirs. In reality, the writing was on the wall when the Sea Harriers went, and they lost the AIM-120 capacity. And yes, from memory, the purpose of the ski jump on the new carriers was to increase the payload/range figures for the F-35B, so they'll work with it.

[paul g]

In short, no. And particularly given the fact that recent oil exploration seems to have been quietly positive.

Doesn't matter how much there is there, if the argentinians object, and are backed by Brazil, then the british won't see any benefit from it.

Jungle rightly point out that Argentina is a democracy, and has been for quite some time.

[DeV]

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/De...wPublished.htm

The devil is in the detail (some of this is inferred (?):

The new carriers will routinely carry only 12 JSFs, they are designed to carry up to 50 aircraft.

The options on 2 Type 45 destroyers will not be exercised.

3 more Astute SSNs are on the way

Ark Royal will be discommissioned (2 years ahead of schedule), this will still leave the RN with 2 carriers (1 of which is currently in reserve). A decision will be made on if Ocean or Illustrious will be decommissioned (and put the other one into "extended readiness"). Ocean is new and specifically designed as a helicopter carrier

Decommisson 4 frigates and a Bay class amphibious support ship (the oldest was taken into service 4 years ago).

The army will lose one of its six all arms brigade (16 Air Aslt is safe). The remainder will be reorganised as multi-role (mix of armoured, mechanised & light role?).

One of the operational Divisional HQs will be reduced (but capable of regeneration / "force perparation")

The UK will remain the leader of ARRC but support units will be reduced.

No combat units involved in Afganistan will be effected (until after the withdrawal).

Challenger 2 holdings reduced by 40%.

Heavy artillery holdings reduced by 35%.

The regional divisons and brigades will the significantly reduced.

Eurofighter, Tornado & JSF (operated jointly with RN/FAA) are safe in the RAF, as are AWACS, Rivet Joint, UAVs, A300 FSTA (replacing VC-10 and Tristar from 2013) and C-17. The Hercules will be withdrawn (10 years earlier than planned) and replaced with A400M. Harrier will be withdrawn.

The support helicopter force (RAF & RN) will be based on Chinook & Merlin (end of Sea King and Puma?).

RAF Regiment force protection squadrons & CBRN contribution are safe.

Sentinel will be withdrawn when no longer needs in Afghanistan

There will be RAF & RN base closures.

The Nimrod MRA4 will not be brought into service (the MR2s may be retained?).

The reserves will be studied.

Redundancies for service personnel.

[hptmurphy]

The new carriers will routinely carry only 12 JSFs, they are designed to carry up to 50 aircraft.

Waste of Money.Sets it up nicely for leasing them out. France have been set up as the prime target for this going back to early this year.

If the RN is reduced to 19 hulls in the water it has effectively been written off.

and put the other one into "extended readiness").

For extended readiness read up for sale at the earliest convenience.

as have references to 'navalising' the Typhoon - probably very difficult

Not even a option!

China / India

India are already ahead in that race having acquired a a carrier from Russia as are the Chinese....

Brazil could be an option as they are on the rise with Naval aviation.

But with the loss of other surface units you can't even field a battle group so why bother at all.

RN is finished as a credible fighting force being reduced to one of a defence force rather than one of force projection.