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  • ISAF involvement in Afghanistan

    The point you are missing RGJ, is that this whole quagmire that the Coalition are sinking in is a self-fulfilling prophecy. The coalition is as much part of the problem, as opposed to the solution, and 10 years of little conclusion is testament to that.

    The more desperate men fallen on hard times that you kill in the name of building a better Afghanistan, the less support the coalition and the corrupt Government that it props up has.

    And the more AQ/Taliban locally recruited Canon Fodder you kill, the stronger their resolve and support becomes whilst you do very little impact to the core network of those organisations.

    The problem with the current strategy is that it's very much like trying to dry out a shallow bath with a hair dryer. The bath being Afghanistan, the water representing Taliban influence, and the hair dryer being the application of Coalition military might. You may be able to create small dry patches here and there with the right concentration of power and hot air blasting the water aside, but as soon as you disengage the trigger of the hair dryer, the water will inevitably refill the bath.
    Now keeping that analogy in mind, would you continue to blast away with the hair dryer, in the hope that eventually you'll dry up all the water, at your own energy expense? Or would you just pull the plug?

  • #2
    i wouldn't pull the plug because i don't give up mate.

    i understand what you are saying and yes it makes sense but dialogue doesn't work in Afghan, much like it didn't in Iraq.

    if we pulled out the life with the Taliban might not be so rosy.

    for example i like knowing we allow kids of both sexes to go to school however the Taliban behead teachers.

    i know which way i prefer to see the kids of Afghan educated.
    RGJ

    ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

    The Rifles

    Comment


    • #3
      Dialogue would work in Afghanistan, in fact it's been documented many times that moderate Taliban would be open to dialogue with the Coalition who aren't opposed to things like girls going to school and beards not being grown. Dialogue can always be reached, as long as principles don't get in the way of compromise. Principles like "I don't give up".

      The problem is that the Coalition won't want to appear to have given Afghanistan back to the Taliban villains after such a spectacular failed clusterfĂșck campaign of military warfighting achieved little more than cosmetic change.

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      • #4
        the moderate Taliban will not prevail over the hardcore Taliban.

        so you suggest we just pull out?

        we are taking a step back and letting the locals get on with sorting their country out.

        we cant just abandon them.
        RGJ

        ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

        The Rifles

        Comment


        • #5
          No, not abandoning them, but support the moderate Taliban instead. They will sell out the hardcore Taliban if it meant power and influence for themselves. By all means they'd need to be regulated so as no abuses as seen in the previous regime creep back in, but at least the governmental authority would be credible.

          You can't say they're sorting themselves out as opium exports, corruption, extortion, murder and kidnapping have all increased. People continue to die, we're just not taking as much responsibility for it, which is ironic.

          With a stable Afghanistan in the making, with credible Islamic leadership in place. A more surgical attack on the heart of AQ and Fundamentalist Taliban can take place, where the swift concentrated use of well armed and well trained coalition troops belong, and if that means going into Pakistan, so be it.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
            the moderate Taliban will not prevail over the hardcore Taliban.

            so you suggest we just pull out?

            we are taking a step back and letting the locals get on with sorting their country out.

            we cant just abandon them.
            You are pulling out. Karzai no longer wants you there. A timetable has been set for withdrawal regardless of success in dealing with Taliban.


            Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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            • #7
              Karzai is just a US puppet, he says what Washington tells him to say. He won't last long once they're gone. (Remember Quisling, the prime minister of occupied Norway during WWII?)

              And RGJ, the British Army have been kicked out of Afghanistan twice before; they'll be leaving for the third time shortly, having achieved precious little, and then it'll be up to the Afghans to sort out their own problems (as it always should have been).

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              • #8
                Originally posted by SwiftandSure View Post

                With a stable Afghanistan in the making, with credible Islamic leadership in place. A more surgical attack on the heart of AQ and Fundamentalist Taliban can take place, where the swift concentrated use of well armed and well trained coalition troops belong, and if that means going into Pakistan, so be it.
                And that's what it's all about really. The funding for the Taliban comes from the ISI in Pakistan who still have their sights set on returning the fighters to the front in Kashmir. IMHO it's better to keep them involved in Afghanistan than have them racking up the tension on the Indo-Pak border.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by easyrider View Post
                  Karzai is just a US puppet, he says what Washington tells him to say. He won't last long once they're gone. (Remember Quisling, the prime minister of occupied Norway during WWII?)

                  And RGJ, the British Army have been kicked out of Afghanistan twice before; they'll be leaving for the third time shortly, having achieved precious little, and then it'll be up to the Afghans to sort out their own problems (as it always should have been).
                  i suggest you read up on your history easyrider because the British Army weren't kicked out of Afghanistan twice. Afghanistan is a battle honour for my regiment and during their founding regiments time in combat there they won almost every military encounter and defeated the Afghan enemy. it was only during political moves that the British left - the British Army were not kicked out in this instance, just as we will not be kicked out this time.

                  no doubt your Brit bashing attitude will lead you to believe we were kicked out of Iraq too (despite us still to this day having forces there).

                  it is only really the first Anglo-Afghan war where the British mission there went bad and the British Army withdrew under attack along the way home.

                  still i understand your plight - it must be frustrating not to be part of a nation who is prepared to commit to combat and get stuck into conflict so think carefully and do your homework before you state other armies were 'kicked out' of a country.

                  perhaps Ireland with the UN will rise to the occasion and commit troops in numbers to sort out the mess we leave behind when eventually we [and other nations with combat troops there] do leave? i didn't think so.
                  RGJ

                  ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

                  The Rifles

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    RGJ, now you are just being an arrogant twit. Can you limit the defence of the operation to that, and not getting a dig in at our defence policy at every opportunity?

                    It would be very boring if I replied to every post you made with "well the IRA weren't long chasing the British Army out of Ireland".
                    Because that is exactly what you are saying every time you use the
                    it must be frustrating not to be part of a nation who is prepared to commit to combat
                    mantra.

                    Give over, while some of us still have a shade of respect for you.


                    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Goldie - i'm getting sick of the usual Brit Bashing at every opportunity by those who haven't a clue and sit comfortably at home while other nations are engaged in conflict.

                      i do apologise for any collateral damage but i only post stuff like that in response to sh|t comments - i don't initiate it.
                      RGJ

                      ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

                      The Rifles

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
                        perhaps Ireland with the UN will rise to the occasion and commit troops in numbers to sort out the mess we leave behind when eventually we [and other nations with combat troops there] do leave? i didn't think so.
                        Or perhaps Ireland aren't stupid enough to see themselves as "World Police" every time a Middle Eastern country has internal troubles and would rather spend what little money they have on building a better nation rather than fooling themselves into thinking they're a military superpower.

                        And all the "RAR RAR RAR, the HM Forces will always sort 'em out and look how great we are at killing people" is just wonderful, and well done you for having such blind pride in your Army and your Country, but it doesn't take away from the fact that British soldiers fight, are maimed and die in these sandpits for an incompetent government relentlessly pursuing a failing strategy at the expense of British lives all in the name of creating a better Afghanistan. Whilst the Chinese, who haven't fired a single shot in anger in Afghanistan can just swoop in and steal away contracts from the West to build $3Billion Copper mines outside Kabul in 2007, and develop gas processing plants in the Northwest territories of Afghanistan in 2010. So remind me again, why are the British committing so much blood and treasure into Afghanistan? The UK terror threat doesn't seem to be that low and the extra opium pouring out of Afghanistan since the occupation is saturating the Western drugs markets. So how are the British public benefiting from having their brave troops sacrificing themselves in foreign fields?

                        But hey, at least the boys can get stuck in and get to get some rounds off, aye?

                        Now am I Brit bashing? Or am I just highlighting the absurdity that is the British presence in Afghanistan after 10 years of failed strategy?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by SwiftandSure View Post
                          But hey, at least the boys can get stuck in and get to get some rounds off, aye?

                          Now am I Brit bashing? Or am I just highlighting the absurdity that is the British presence in Afghanistan after 10 years of failed strategy?
                          if i was a politician or even a cleverer guy i'd give you a decent answer to that but i am a soldier and i joined the army to get involved in operations and combat and thats what i like to do.

                          casualties are inevitible in every conflict however i'd much rather be in an army that does get stuck in instead of sitting at home watching other nations do it on the news, and that's why i joined this army - to soldier.
                          RGJ

                          ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

                          The Rifles

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
                            i suggest you read up on your history easyrider because the British Army weren't kicked out of Afghanistan twice. Afghanistan is a battle honour for my regiment and during their founding regiments time in combat there they won almost every military encounter and defeated the Afghan enemy. it was only during political moves that the British left - the British Army were not kicked out in this instance, just as we will not be kicked out this time.

                            no doubt your Brit bashing attitude will lead you to believe we were kicked out of Iraq too (despite us still to this day having forces there).

                            it is only really the first Anglo-Afghan war where the British mission there went bad and the British Army withdrew under attack along the way home.

                            still i understand your plight - it must be frustrating not to be part of a nation who is prepared to commit to combat and get stuck into conflict so think carefully and do your homework before you state other armies were 'kicked out' of a country.

                            perhaps Ireland with the UN will rise to the occasion and commit troops in numbers to sort out the mess we leave behind when eventually we [and other nations with combat troops there] do leave? i didn't think so.


                            Aa yes British "battle honours" the original wikipedia of the military world

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
                              i suggest you read up on your history easyrider because the British Army weren't kicked out of Afghanistan twice.
                              While you might be able to argue that the second and third anglo-afghan wars ended in something other than an outright defeat, I'm not sure you can say the same for this:

                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacr...stone%27s_Army

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