350 UK Special Forces Soldiers in Libya

[faughanballagh Resident Yank Find all posts View Profile Close faughanballagh]

Imagine if 300 Libiyan Special Forces were dropped into England/USA/France

would that be an illegal act.

I was more responding to the claim that starting a war is a war crime. I suppose it's hard to argue that it's legal to just go send your forces wherever you want...but how can one defend a law if it lacks a proper enforcement capability? Perhaps I'm blinded by viewing international law on the whole as being not as black-and-white as law should be.

[hedgehog Serf Find all posts View Profile Close hedgehog]

I was more responding to the claim that starting a war is a war crime. I suppose it's hard to argue that it's legal to just go send your forces wherever you want...but how can one defend a law if it lacks a proper enforcement capability? Perhaps I'm blinded by viewing international law on the whole as being not as black-and-white as law should be.

You may have a point there- I dont know if what the Brit special forces are doing is a

war crime- but I assume what they did was a crime and I do know that they went in

before any UN SC resoloution.

Lets face it Britian invaded Libiya and in this day and age

thats wrong.

[hedgehog Serf Find all posts View Profile Close hedgehog]

Yeah, Muammar Gaddafi is a real nice guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libya



His friend Idi Amin ?? He may have slowed down in recent times, but the real Gaddafi has reappeared after being challenged by the Council.

I wish the Rebels the very best, hopefully they can turn Libya into a Democracy. I hope all the dictatorships will collapse; never in history (at least in that of the modern Democracies) have two democracies gone to war against each other. Democracy is the best hope for peace.

Some of the members on this site should put aside their anti-British, anti-US, anti-West feelings and support the rebels trying to turn a dictatorship into a Democracy, and the coalition Forces helping them.

There is no doubt that he is a prick- and there is no doubt that he violated all sorts of

human rights laws within his own country and within other countries as well.

And sadly the world and his wife knew it- and I am sure big countries with massive

int agencies knew it.

So why selll arms and weapons to him?

[easyrider Commandant Find all posts View Profile Close easyrider]

what exactly did we sell to him?

i haven't seen anything decent that western nations would have sold to him.

whatever we sold him it is hardly cutting edge and i don't think it is affecting the rebellion in any way.

Remember these? Remember all the fuss about Gaddafi shelling his own people? Pic. taken outside Benghazi, before the Rafales got to them. They're Italian-made 155mm guns.

[Col Private 3* Find all posts View Profile Close Col]

Looks like some of the SAS lads might be pretty familiar with that part of the world already...


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...an-troops.html

[hedgehog Serf Find all posts View Profile Close hedgehog]

what exactly did we sell to him?

i haven't seen anything decent that western nations would have sold to him.

whatever we sold him it is hardly cutting edge and i don't think it is affecting the rebellion in any way.

You really cant dance with the devil mate- he dances with you- so it doesnt matter

how good the stuff you sold him was or wasnt- its the fact you got into bed with him,

and we know that one of the nations now bombing him sold him the Bowman,

and I dont know what you mean by decent- but surely Mad Gad himself isnt decent

so why are the good guys selling him anything whether its decent or not:

However you did ask the question and I dont know the exact ins and outs of what

the UK sold him but this may give you the value.


An interesting collection of various data- all sources are attrituable at

http://ohuiginn.net/mt/2011/02/eu_li...ss_review.html

EU arms sales to Libya: fleshing out the figures
There's no doubt that European weapons are today being used to kill Libyans.

Journalists across Europe are now fleshing out the details, figuring out whodunnit and how. Here's a summary of what they've found so far...

Start with the official figures: €343 million of weapons sold in 2009 alone. The EU Observer, Deutsche Welle and Der Spiegel summarize those numbers and examine what is behind them. They speculate, for example, that the €43m of German electrical exports includes jamming equipment used to block the mobile phone and GPS networks.

Italy is the biggest exporter: they officially sold Libya €111m of weapons, but are also responsible for €80m of firearms dubiously licensed through Malta. The Corriere della Sera has found a government report detailing the Italian companies involved, which Sky News summarizes in English:

Missile systems maker Mbda Italia signed a deal worth 2.5 million euros ($A3.42 million) in May 2009 to supply Libya with 'material for bombs, torpedoes, rockets and missiles', the interior ministry report was quoted as saying.
Helicopter maker Augusta Westland signed two contracts with Libya in October 2010 worth 70 million euros ($A95.88 million). Also last year, Selex Sistemi Integrati signed a 13 million euro ($A17.81 million) deal to provide Libya with gun targeting equipment.
...
This year, military shipmaker Intermarine Spa started negotiations with Libya for contracts worth a total of 600 million euros ($A821.86 million).
Selex Sistemi Integrati, Augusta-Westland and Oto Melara are also in talks with Libya for contracts totalling 150 million euros ($A205.47 million).
In Britain, the Campaign Against the Arms Trade reports that "the UK Government had approved the export of goods including tear gas and crowd control ammunition and sniper rifles to Bahrain and Libya". The arms-promotion wing of the UK government counts Libya as a "priority market", and says "high-level political interventions" have supported UK weapons sales there. Last November, over half of the exhibitors at the Libyan Defence & Security Exhibition (LibDex) were UK companies.

British Prime Minister David Cameron has provided another cause for controversy, bringing along eight arms firms on a trip to Egypt and Kuwait last week. Cameron openly defended arms sales, saying "he could not understand why anyone would oppose his attempts to boost British defence sales in such a volatile region"

Belgian sales to Libya consist mostly of small arms made by FH Herstal. Le Soir is doing a fantastic job of investigating this. Last Monday they were already reporting contracts for guns. By Thursday they'd identified spent ammunition from the libyan city of Al-Bayda as manufactured by FH Herstal.

In France, web outlet Rue89 interviews Jean Guisnel, whose recent book on the arms trade has a chapter devoted to Libya. He names French politicians involved in weapons deals with Libya: president Nicolas Sarkozy, minister of defence Michèle Alliot-Marie and her husband, and the Libyan middle-man Ziad Takieddine. As for companies:

Involved in recent contracts were MBDA, subsidiary of EADS, for the Milan anti-tank missiles, EADS Defence and Security for telecommunications networks, and the Dassault-Thales-Snecma Sofema consortium for renovation of the Mirage jet. In my opinion, these are the most important. Then there are are ongoing negotiations not yet concluded: military and civilian Eurocopter helicopters, the renovation of Rattlesnake missiles sold by Thales, or renovation of Combattante boats.
A few journalists are starting to look beyond pure arms sales, examining training and other collaboration. I highlighted reports from 2008, claiming that former German Chancellor Gerhard Schröder had brokered a deal for elite German commandos to train the Libyan security services:

The German officers would receive €15,000 each, paid by a private security firm which in turn got a €1.6m cheque from Libya. They would take time off from their elite anti-terrorist unit. Their superiors thought they were vacationing in Tunisia, though the German embassy in Libya knew their real purpose. The officers set up shop in a barracks in Tripoli, where for 6 months they taught their Libyan counterparts how to storm buildings, board ships and operate out of helicopters.
Finally, openDemocracy weighs in on a big story not yet getting enough attention: arms deals aren't the only link between Europe and Gaddafi's military. The tyrant has also been a conveniently ruthless border guard, keeping refugees away before they become Europe's problem. The EU's €50m funding for Libyan border controls is just part of the problem:
We, the citizens of the EU, should also be reminded that for over three years now, we have relied on Gaddafi and his state apparatus to keep asylum seekers and other migrants away from our doors. The Gaddafi Government's treatment of migrants has been known to undercut human rights for a long time. In the past week, matters have escalated further. Human rights groups have reported atrocious racist violence against Sub-Saharan Africans in Libya, including those removed there by Italy on the basis of bilateral agreements with Libya designed to combat illegal immigration to Europe. Eritrean, Somali, and Sudanese refugees, accused of being mercenaries on the payroll of the government are summarily executed with knives and machetes.

[Goldie fish Tim Horgan Find all posts View Profile Close Goldie fish]

i only asked what did we sell them?

i didn't ask for the sh|te criticism of the kit that went with it

anyhow apologies, no more radio talk in here, OUT.

The Vosper Frigate Dat Assawari.

Good Ole Vosper.

[hedgehog Serf Find all posts View Profile Close hedgehog]

Also have a look at the value of arnaments sales from EU countries to a Country such a Libiya

that we knew was being run by a mad despot.

and remember these figures are in MILLION STERLING

[/QUOTE] Data summary
EU arms exports to Libya
Value of export licenses granted. All figures in €m. Click heading to sort. Download this data

Country 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 Total
SOURCE: EUROPA
Total 72.19 59.03 108.8 250.78 343.73 834.54
Italy 14.97 56.72 93.22 111.8 276.7
France 12.88 36.75 17.66 112.32 30.54 210.15
UK 58.86 3.11 4.63 27.2 25.55 119.35
Germany 0.31 2 23.84 4.18 53.15 83.48
Malta 0.01 79.69 79.7
Belgium 0.21 0.45 22.32 23.02
Portugal 6.88 14.52 21.4
Spain 3.82 3.84 7.69
Slovakia 1 4.41 5.41
Bulgaria 3.73 3.75
Czech Republic 1.19 1.92 3.11
Poland 2.03 2.03
Austria 1.81 1.83
Slovenia 0.14 0.27 0.11 0.53
Latvia 0.25 0.25
Greece 0.03
[/QUOTE]

A summary of the breakdown is aavailable here- and remember this is EU figures compiled from
requests to trade with Libiya;

EU arms exports: types of product
All figuresin €. Click heading to sort. Download this data

Country Ammunition and fuses Tear gas, chem weapons, radio-active Electronic equip Military planes Small guns
SOURCE: EUROPA
Total 6,101,995 9,688,033 85,416,087 278,244,867 97,955,681
Italy 0 1,016,948 107,726,979
France 2,345,007 1,045,360 10,689,216 126,177,565 7,412
UK 3,088 455,705 26,163,548 2,118,152 283,942
Germany 0 7,765,968 46,894,764 15,780,000
Malta 14,900 79,689,691
Belgium 651,611 17,953,442
Portugal 21,399,613
Slovakia 2,230,131
Bulgaria 3,730,000
Czech Republic 421,000
Poland 2,025,846
Austria 9,000 21,194
Slovenia 532,042
Latvia 254,539

Have a read of this very intersting British Newspaper with regard to the above and follow the download data link it will give you a more detailed look of what exactly the good guys sold to Mad Gad,


Now RGJ back to your original point;

whatever we sold him it is hardly cutting edge and i don't think it is affecting the rebellion in any way.

Do you think the
small arms
Bombs, missiles and rockets
The Military COntrol systems
The CHemical weapons
The tear gas
the ground vehicles
the military planes
the electronic systems
the surveiallance training and tools
the military software

supplied by the UK didnt affect the rebels?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab...rts-libya#data

[paul g C/S Find all posts View Profile Close paul g]

In all fairness arms sales between the Uk and Libya were not that extensive.

That may be because of the whole lockerbie incident, and the real scandal is the Megrahi affair which will also come to haunt HMG, and in particular Blair and Straw.

But lets not be so quick to bash the brits, its alleged that the real reason that Sarkozy is so keen to bomb is that he';s terrified that it will emerge that he took money from the libyans. And Silvio and Gadaffi share an intrest in young girls.

The best comment I hear this week was from Declan Ganley, who is not my favourite person, who pointed out that we should be prooud that our system was able to produce the moriarity report. In my experience other governments are far more corrupt.

[Goldie fish Tim Horgan Find all posts View Profile Close Goldie fish]

I heard this morning that this is the first time French made Fighter Jets have gone to Libya and returned home after.

[hedgehog Serf Find all posts View Profile Close hedgehog]

In all fairness arms sales between the Uk and Libya were not that extensive.

That may be because of the whole lockerbie incident, and the real scandal is the Megrahi affair which will also come to haunt HMG, and in particular Blair and Straw.

But lets not be so quick to bash the brits, its alleged that the real reason that Sarkozy is so keen to bomb is that he';s terrified that it will emerge that he took money from the libyans. And Silvio and Gadaffi share an intrest in young girls.

The best comment I hear this week was from Declan Ganley, who is not my favourite person, who pointed out that we should be prooud that our system was able to produce the moriarity report. In my experience other governments are far more corrupt.

Not that extensive?

How do you quantify what is or isnt extenisve-

It only takes one round to kill a person-

[Goldie fish Tim Horgan Find all posts View Profile Close Goldie fish]

Not that extensive?

How do you quantify what is or isnt extenisve-

It only takes one round to kill a person-

Does Ireland appear on that list? Because while we have no defence industry as such, it is well known that many Irish Based companies sell to military end users worldwide...and it is quite profitable.
So you can sell lots of things to a military, and a bullet need not be ony of them.

[hedgehog Serf Find all posts View Profile Close hedgehog]

Does Ireland appear on that list? Because while we have no defence industry as such, it is well known that many Irish Based companies sell to military end users worldwide...and it is quite profitable.
So you can sell lots of things to a military, and a bullet need not be ony of them.

I take your point

and it should be noted that the EU have given the Libiyan's aid as well and we voted

for it- (equpment for border guards)

It should also be noted that that the export licences dont reflect a fully true picture

in that if Ireland or anyother country exported parts / equipment under licence to a third

country and that country assembled the parts/equipment into something and then

shipped it to Gad, well Ireland wouldnt be listed as an exporter

so your right- we could be shipping stuff to Libiya just like the Brits- French-Germans etc

however ....

[Connaught Stranger Lt Colonel Find all posts View Profile Close Connaught Stranger]

Well its an invasion of a foreign country. In any language it's illegal.

Even if they are using cloned Israeli passports?

Connaught Stranger.

[Barry Lt General Find all posts View Profile Close Barry]

Posts about Bowman and UKSF comms have been split off into another thread. Discussion of arms sales to Libya is both relevant and interesting, but try to keep it vaguely related to Libya, rather than discussing what sneaky types use to send eachother youtube links.