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    Originally posted by hedgehog View Post
    There is no doubt that he is a prick- and there is no doubt that he violated all sorts of

    human rights laws within his own country and within other countries as well...

    So why selll arms and weapons to him?
    what exactly did we sell to him?

    i haven't seen anything decent that western nations would have sold to him.

    whatever we sold him it is hardly cutting edge and i don't think it is affecting the rebellion in any way.
    RGJ

    ...Once a Rifleman - Always a Rifleman... Celer et Audax

    The Rifles

  • #2
    [QUOTE]
    Originally posted by RoyalGreenJacket View Post
    what exactly did we sell to him?
    Amongst other kit, a British General Dynamics variant of BOWMAN to equip the Libyan 32 Brigade which is essentially the "Palace Guard" that protects the Big Tent.

    whatever we sold him it is hardly cutting edge and i don't think it is affecting the rebellion in any way.

    A lot of other people - including senior British Officers- have serious reservations about BOWMAN as well ,RGJ, so for once we are in agreement- BOWMAN is hardly "cutting-edge".
    timhorgan
    Banned User
    Last edited by timhorgan; 27 March 2011, 11:02.

    Comment


    • #3
      Troops turn on 'useless' Bowman radio
      27 August 2008


      The Bowman radio has come under heavy attack from Army officers, who have labelled it "useless" and "astonishingly bad".

      Lieutenant Colonel Nick Borton, the commanding officer of the 5th battalion the Royal Regiment of Scotland (5 Scots) recently told General Sir David Richards, the Army's second most senior officer, that the Bowman radio "was a broken system".

      According to The Sunday Telegraph, while Sir David was visiting Musla Qala, Afghanistan with a number of field and operations commanders, Borton publicly confronted him about the failures of the radio system during an officer’s meeting.

      The coverage has been weak according to Borton. In some cases radios on the other side of a base could not receive transmissions from Bowman.

      "The coverage on VHF is just a few hundred metres, so we use HF or UHF but that only gives us five kilometres. In some cases we cannot even get coverage from one side of the base to the other," Borton told Sir Dave.

      He also complained about the life of batteries in the radio. Their lifespan is so low that troops often have to keep the radios off until they come under attack, he said.

      According to The Sunday Telegraph, a senior officer reckoned that many officers would prefer the older Clansman radio system.

      During the system’s inception, engineers did not listen to complaints about how heavy the Bowman was. Troops repeatedly said that it was not practicable to carry on the battlefield.

      The first attempt of Bowman, like many other high profile defence procurement projects, was ten years late and £500m over budget. The second attempt with General Dynamics, was more successful as it has now been deployed live, despite misgivings over its weight and performance.

      MoD officials denied that there were any serious problems with the system and said that the harsh terrain in Afghanistan may pose a challenge to the radio’s operating capability. Potential improvements are being examined according to the MoD.

      The highly-respected Col.Borton seems to me to be very well-qualified to comment above-I understand he has a bright future in the Army - and of course Gen.Richards has now moved on quite quickly to CDF.

      But I do hope that after two decades of development and hundreds of millions over budget they have now listened to the likes of Col. Borton and made substantial improvements over the past 20 months- but I doubt it,somehow.




      General Dynamics UK (GDUK) was given a deal worth s85m to supply the Libyan army with Bowman battlefield radios.

      Yesterday Mr Blair made no mention of the deal when he said the No Fly Zone came not a moment too soon.

      But decorated Army colonel and Tory MP Patrick Mercer said: Its a sorry state of affairs that UK forces and the Libyan people are now threatened with arms sold to them by their Prime Minister.
      I said " a variant of Bowman". It is Bowman in all but name -but with replacements for a few pieces of American kit. Everyone knows that it is Bowman.
      timhorgan
      Banned User
      Last edited by timhorgan; 27 March 2011, 12:38. Reason: typo

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      • #4
        Originally posted by RoyalGreenJacket
        that article is nearly 3 years old and BOWMAN has had its upgrade since then.

        next!
        He said: "The only way to tell how much power a battery has is to remove it from the radio - that's a serious design fault.

        "To preserve power, my section commanders only have their radios working when they are in contact.

        "As far as I am concerned, Bowman is astonishingly bad. It is a broken system."
        So, we can take it that the above problem has been solved!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by RoyalGreenJacket
          that article is nearly 3 years old and BOWMAN has had its upgrade since then.

          next!
          Is it a Bowman Mk II or a whole new system?
          To close with and kill the enemy in all weather conditions, night and day and over any terrain

          Comment


          • #6
            what radio system would you compare it to Tim that is more cutting edge? i'd like to know.
            Well, and I have to be careful here. Let us look at a scenario later on where a new Wargame vid is out based on Libya now.

            Knowing that the Libyans have Bowman and what we know about Bowman ourselves I would not use it.

            I would go for a certain system by a certain Japanese company called Fujitsu.

            However, I cannot say anymore at present-you will have to wait for the DVD. OPSEC, I am afraid.
            timhorgan
            Banned User
            Last edited by timhorgan; 27 March 2011, 11:49.

            Comment


            • #7
              You're the one dragging it off topic RGJ - you asked what was sold to Libya and Tim Horgan answered the question. Nobody here gives a shit if bowman makes you a cup of tea and gives you a back massage - the topic is Libya.

              And before you start accusing me of bias, Tim Horgan isn't telling the complete truth, as it was only a variant of bowman that they were sold, without any american technology - http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=3518749

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Barry View Post
                You're the one dragging it off topic RGJ - you asked what was sold to Libya and Tim Horgan answered the question. Nobody here gives a shit if bowman makes you a cup of tea and gives you a back massage - the topic is Libya.

                And before you start accusing me of bias, Tim Horgan isn't telling the complete truth, as it was only a variant of bowman that they were sold, without any american technology - http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=3518749
                Thanks, Barry, but I specifically said "variant" of Bowman. See my original below. The changes were made to get around US licensing restrictions.

                a British General Dynamics variant of BOWMAN

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Barry View Post
                  You're the one dragging it off topic RGJ - you asked what was sold to Libya and Tim Horgan answered the question. Nobody here gives a shit if bowman makes you a cup of tea and gives you a back massage - the topic is Libya.

                  And before you start accusing me of bias, Tim Horgan isn't telling the complete truth, as it was only a variant of bowman that they were sold, without any american technology - http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=3518749
                  Thanks, Barry, but I specifically said "variant" of Bowman. See my original below. The changes were made to get around US licensing restrictions.

                  a British General Dynamics variant of BOWMAN

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by RoyalGreenJacket
                    same BOWMAN (as used by SAS/SBS/SRR) just with some hardware and plenty of software upgrades - mostly for better interoperability (Apache etc.).
                    I am afraid you are quite wrong there, RGJ -IF UK Special Forces are in Libya you can rest assured that they are NOT using Bowman-they are using a much more sophisticated system, lighter and more robust-with design inputs by first-class British Army Officers and soldiers with excellent combat and IT skills and experience.
                    timhorgan
                    Banned User
                    Last edited by timhorgan; 27 March 2011, 12:19.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by RoyalGreenJacket
                      i only asked what did we sell them?

                      i didn't ask for the sh|te criticism of the kit that went with it

                      anyhow apologies, no more radio talk in here, OUT.
                      i haven't seen anything decent that western nations would have sold to him.

                      whatever we sold him it is hardly cutting edge and i don't think it is affecting the rebellion in any way.
                      RGJ, Barry is right- it was you yourself who brought up the quality of kit sold to Libya-I just answered your question and quoted senior British Officers view of Bowman.
                      The only "shite" ( your words) criticism came from Col. Borton but that is your description, not mine. I thought my presentation was a very well-balanced reply to your question.

                      But, I agree, we should now leave the questions of radios for OPSEC reasons and not go any further into the fabulous totally new kit being used by UKSF.
                      timhorgan
                      Banned User
                      Last edited by timhorgan; 27 March 2011, 12:28.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by HavocIRL View Post
                        Is it a Bowman Mk II or a whole new system?
                        Havoc, The Director UK Special Forces decided some years ago that BOWMAN was totally unsuitable- they have a completely different system.That is all I can related to BOWMAN in any way. That is all I can say.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Goldie fish View Post
                          I heard this morning that this is the first time French made Fighter Jets have gone to Libya and returned home after.
                          I heard that Bowman means "better off with map and nokia"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by paul g View Post
                            I heard that Bowman means "better off with map and nokia"

                            For those members of IMO who would like to know more about the systems now in use by UKSF please find below an extract from a document describing the system acquired by UKSF.

                            As it is quite clear that this system is still highly classified and even well-established correspondents on this site who have seen long service and are still serving in the British Army are unaware of it I have blanked some details as a courtesy to our British SF friends.


                            Recruited as the xxxxx , one of the largest IT contracts seen in Europe. Due to internal pressures, was appointed as the “solution owner” and technical director for a battlefield radio and data environment (J*) for the UK Special Forces (smaller, more technically complex and more capable than Bowman) (including IS, Gateways, Tactical comms, encryption, Vehicle Platform design, integration etc).
                            Main Achievements
                            Led xxxxxxx to a win of a contract estimated to be worth between £500M and £1Bn over 10 years. The solution included 700 vehicles, radio comms, Tactical Information Systems. Appointed Technical Director across
                            Defence and Security in xxxx
                            .


                            All credit to UKSF though for keeping this fantastic kit out of the public eye and even those of their regular force colleagues.



                            RGJ: what radio system would you compare it to Tim that is more cutting edge? i'd like to know.
                            Thanks RGJ- I think that I would go with the Director UKSF on this one- I would trust his judgement implicitly ( After all he was trained and mentored by some great Irish soldiers).
                            But perhaps we should leave it all there now.




                            PS
                            My understanding is that the "Gateways" facility is without doubt the most useful and cutting-edge aspect of the system- but I cannot say any more.
                            timhorgan
                            Banned User
                            Last edited by timhorgan; 28 March 2011, 09:54.

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                            • #15
                              Tim that's an extract from a chaps CV.
                              Last edited by Orion; 28 March 2011, 09:59.

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