New Zealand Defence Force

[CTU]

I think it comes down to reading the geo-strategic room you could say. Ireland is still not reading the room and seems stuck in a pre 2020 mindset.

I think you are being generous with that assesment, in reality it's more like a pre-1945 mindset.

[DeV]

I think you are being generous with that assesment, in reality it's more like a pre-1945 mindset.

Pre 1938 i’d say

[DeV]

The lack of urgency still within the Irish government is really surprising.

it really isn’t

[GoneToTheCanner]

Pre 1938 i’d say

Even back then, they did an assessment of what they had on hand and suggested what would be the minimum to create a decent Army and Reserve and offer some kind of credible defence. It all boiled down to what could be bought from the UK and America but Finance stuck their oar in and kept vetoing arms purchases. The national industrial element was also looked at and basically, it all boiled down to Thompsons of Carlow and/or whatever could be knocked up from Base Workshops and CIE. They could make mines and grenades galore but had little or no explosive to fill them. They were utterly dependent on relations between Ireland and the UK to supply ammunition, spares, vehicles and vehicle kits, aircraft, ships of all sizes, weapons, radios, heavy guns and a host of other kit. Fuels, oils and lubricants were of paramount importance and also entirely dependent on the UK and US. The parallels with today are interesting.

[DeV]

Even back then, they did an assessment of what they had on hand and suggested what would be the minimum to create a decent Army and Reserve and offer some kind of credible defence. It all boiled down to what could be bought from the UK and America but Finance stuck their oar in and kept vetoing arms purchases. The national industrial element was also looked at and basically, it all boiled down to Thompsons of Carlow and/or whatever could be knocked up from Base Workshops and CIE. They could make mines and grenades galore but had little or no explosive to fill them. They were utterly dependent on relations between Ireland and the UK to supply ammunition, spares, vehicles and vehicle kits, aircraft, ships of all sizes, weapons, radios, heavy guns and a host of other kit. Fuels, oils and lubricants were of paramount importance and also entirely dependent on the UK and US. The parallels with today are interesting.

Finance even cut defence expenditure during the early years of The Emergency

[GoneToTheCanner]

I read an account of where they had ordered 3.7 inch AA guns and all the relevant spares and ammunition and to their surprise, the British readily agreed, when it was expected that they be denied as UK home defence was an obvious priority. Some time later, a letter from the UK asked if they were going to pay for the guns and would they be of a mind to collect them or arrange shipping,etc etc. Turned out that DoF and the DoD were having a senior-level bunfight about monies and a blizzard of paper was being expended in this bunfight, but the Taoiseach got wind of it and ordered the guns to be paid for, as soon as, and the sooner the better. The Army was highly pissed off because they had been assured that the purchase was a done deal and had made plans accordingly and were furious at the behind the scenes stuff.

[Anzac]

The first 18 of the 43 Bushmasters Utility Vehicles- Medium purchased from Australia for $102.9 million are starting to arrive at Queens Alexandra's Mounted Rifles replacing the armoured Pinzgauers which have not been a success in service. Introduced in 2006 by 2013 only 29 of the 68 were in operation with the remainder consumed as target practice for artillery and direct fire, which bought a huge morale boost across units who welcomed their only fit for purpose role.

The Bushies were offered back in 2004 when the RFI went out but for some mad reason the MoD went for Pinzers. However 1 NZSAS Regiment has operated a small tranche of Bushmasters for about 5 years supporting D and E Squadrons so the Bushies are a known quantity. Finally Army were allowed to buy the vehicle that they actually wanted thanks to the previous minister (2017-2020) who was a former Army electrical and mechanical engineering officer.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pol...ehicles-arrive

[na grohmiti]

Seeing so much commentary as we do from the UK, we are led to believe the Pinz is the best thing since the guy who invented sliced bread. Surprised the Armoured versions failed to deliver.

[Anzac]

Seeing so much commentary as we do from the UK, we are led to believe the Pinz is the best thing since the guy who invented sliced bread. Surprised the Armoured versions failed to deliver.

Well you have to remember that as they were built in Guildford they automatically become the greatest thing since sliced bread in the eyes of the Poms. That is their default position - British is best.

Cracked axles, gearbox problems, never could be deployed into A/Stan due to vulnerability to IED's and the support side very ordinary. Described by an ex Waikato Mounted Rifles mate as the Morris Marina of Protected Mobility.

[Jaque'ammer]

Well you have to remember that as they were built in Guildford they automatically become the greatest thing since sliced bread in the eyes of the Poms. That is their default position - British is best. Cracked axles, gearbox problems, never could be deployed into A/Stan due to vulnerability to IED's and the support side very ordinary. Described by an ex Waikato Mounted Rifles mate as the Morris Marina of Protected Mobility.

See Ajax too

[Anzac]

See Ajax too

Oh yes AJAX. Is that an Pom anachronism for Another Junk Armoured eXperiment? Came in last in the ADF's evaluation for Land 400 Phase 3 where sources regarded it as not fit for purpose and too expensive, behind the BAE Systems-Hagglunds CV90 which was assessed as too expensive, the Lynx which was shortlisted and regarded with strong potential but deemed as requiring further development in the product cycle. So the ADF are getting a better and cheaper tracked IFV in the AS-21 Redback.

That is one thing Ireland and New Zealand don't have to put up with. Government emphasis and support of fading Defence Industry sectors burning up billions extra in taxpayers dosh to keep "national pride" and a few jobs in dying "industrial electorates" as the primary rationale for acquisition rather than the basic military purpose of supplying ones forces with equipment that will win the battle.

The Aussies are not home free in this sense though.

https://www.afr.com/politics/federal...0230510-p5d76j

The Type 26 is not all plain sailing. It is looking like each vessel will cost AUD$5 Billion to produce when one takes into account the overall project cost.

We have bagged the Yanks about the Littoral Combat Ship, but the Constellation Class Frigate is looking like a winner in that balance of cost versus capability. Get a good design like the FREEM and add you own in production proven systems including Aegis Baseline 10 and start knocking these baby Burkes out.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news...-the-u-s-navy/

[SouthernOne]

O

The Aussies are not home free in this sense though.

https://www.afr.com/politics/federal...0230510-p5d76j

The Type 26 is not all plain sailing. It is looking like each vessel will cost AUD$5 Billion to produce when one takes into account the overall project cost.

One of the issues with project costs is that everyone is able to calculate a "cost" that "proves" their argument. Even total "program" costs can be calculated in a variety of ways, particularly when you include spending on long term infrastructure items like ship yards. Another variable is time - nominal dollars (which is pretty meaningless for long duration projects, or where there are significant delays or rescheduling) or present value dollars calculated using some assumed inflation rate and projected timing.

One of the significant financial benefits of a domestic build program is that a large proportion of expenditures are recouped through taxes.

In terms of systems and capability the Hunters will be very different, more capable, ships compared to the RNs Type 26.

[Anzac]

One of the issues with project costs is that everyone is able to calculate a "cost" that "proves" their argument. Even total "program" costs can be calculated in a variety of ways, particularly when you include spending on long term infrastructure items like ship yards. Another variable is time - nominal dollars (which is pretty meaningless for long duration projects, or where there are significant delays or rescheduling) or present value dollars calculated using some assumed inflation rate and projected timing.

One of the significant financial benefits of a domestic build program is that a large proportion of expenditures are recouped through taxes.

In terms of systems and capability the Hunters will be very different, more capable, ships compared to the RNs Type 26.

I agree that both the Canadian and Australian versions of the Type 26 will be superior to the City Class.

Nevertheless the Australian National Audit Office does have some valid value for money concerns about the Hunter Class project so far in their report tabled to Parliament. Lets hope that it does improve. Bear in mind that the ANAO examinations are underpinned by statuary regulations and ISSAI reporting protocols thus are the final arbiter of whoever is attempting to "prove" their argument.

[SouthernOne]

I agree that both the Canadian and Australian versions of the Type 26 will be superior to the City Class.

Nevertheless the Australian National Audit Office does have some valid value for money concerns about the Hunter Class project so far in their report tabled to Parliament. Lets hope that it does improve. Bear in mind that the ANAO examinations are underpinned by statuary regulations and ISSAI reporting protocols thus are the final arbiter of whoever is attempting to "prove" their argument.

Large, long duration programs like the Hunters will always be a challenge in terms of managing costs.

One of the interesting aspects of the Hobart class build was how dramatically the cost of fabricating the hull and integrating equipment reduced over the three ships. Had a fourth been ordered, no doubt that cost would have reduced further, and possibly reached or approached the “lowest possible” level. What that cost curve will look like for the Hunter class will probably be known once things area further into the program.

Another major wild card is the impact of exchange rates on imported equipment; gas turbines, Mk 45, Mk 41 etc. There is no way to effectively hedge those contracts over the entire duration of the build phase of the Hunter program; it’s just too long a time frame. Then there’s the cost of munitions that will eventually be loaded.

Hopefully the overall program will trend more like the F-35 than the NH90.

In the Australian system it's a joint committee (representatives from both the Senate and House fo Representatives) of the Federal Parliament who hears both perspectives on audits and reaches its own conclusions, often after further "discussion" with both parties or investigation.

[Anzac]

One of the interesting aspects of the Hobart class build was how dramatically the cost of fabricating the hull and integrating equipment reduced over the three ships. Had a fourth been ordered, no doubt that cost would have reduced further, and possibly reached or approached the “lowest possible” level. What that cost curve will look like for the Hunter class will probably be known once things area further into the program.

I remember reading about the Navy League pushing for a 4th Hobart at the time and how it would become cheaper -which it would have been the case. Other commentary elsewhere that a followup flight II extended drumbeat of the Hobarts nuanced more for ASW to start replacing the last three of FFG-7's and ANZAC's as well. Of course Cabinets come and go as well as chiefs and advisors and this faded away.

The Anzacs got much more cost effective as the programme developed. I have read US literature in the past that typically beyond eight in the drumbeat if it is remaining steady, cost efficiencies become easier to achieve.

By the way are the RAN looking to embark the MQ-8C alongside the MH-60R on the Hunters as what the USN are intending to do with the Constellations? The RNZN SeaSprite replacement RFI seems to have been conceptually written with that in mind? The RNZN future frigate replacement project is set to start in earnest and worries me. I would be happy with either the Hunter or Constellation, but I have this dread that an el cheapo RN style Type 31 "maritime security" frigate will more excite the sandles and hemp cardigan wearers who inhabit most government departments these days.