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  • #16
    Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    Australia has become the ideal Lockheed/Boeing puppet. It just buys what America decides it needs. When was the last time Australia made an independent decision about arms purchases?
    Utter unsubstantiated rubbish. Come on then - name with evidence these examples of Australia only buying what the US tells it to buy?

    The last time Australia made an independent decision about arms purchases was last month in canning the ARH Tiger ordered in 2001 which took 15 years to get IOCéd - for the Apache. Australia does what it wants to do. It is fiercely independent of mind - basically the only country out their in the west that has the balls and self confidence to tell the PRC to GFTS over human rights and the SCS. The Airbus KC-30 has been a great platform - not US, they bought the Type 26 not the US/Italian Constellation Class, their new supply ships, LHD's and current destroyers are Spanish, the PC-21 from the Swiss and not the T-6C. They have bought IFV's, LOV's and LSV's off the Germans, the ASLAV off the Canadians, their air defence system is from Norway, their basic training chopper is the EC-135, their tactical lifter is Italian and their new sub class is French.
    Last edited by Anzac; 19 June 2021, 04:29.

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    • #17
      F-35, Poseidon, T6-II, M1 Abrams, various infantry small arms. You quoted the Apache because they got reamed by the Tiger and the NH 90 is another bag of nails. Most of the important bits of a lot of the equipment you listed are American parts such as engines,radars, weapons,avionics, spare parts, simulation etc,etc.,all of which can be subject to American sanction if Australia makes a decision the Yanks don't like. Elements of the Aus Army wanted the Leo because of the diesel engine, instead of being stuck with a fuel hungry turbine that is no longer in production but other opinions prevailed,as America has a surfeit of M1s and is anxious to sell them on. i admire Australian character and resilience as much as the next guy but when it comes to selling weapons,Uncle Sam will apply economic and political pressure until it gets a deal, albeit loaded heavily in it's favour. They have the economic clout to sell weapons at a discount to force a sale and get the foot in the door. If you want to see a nation that stands up to American sales pressure, look to France. Allied to the Yanks but more than happy to give the Yanks the shoulder if it interferes with the interests of France.

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      • #18
        And why wouldn't Australia want to ensure interoperability with its closest ally and security partner, and the country its closest to in broader world view? This is not criticism of France, but what support could they provide if things became really difficult in the Indo-Pacific?

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        • #19
          Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
          F-35, Poseidon, T6-II, M1 Abrams, various infantry small arms. You quoted the Apache because they got reamed by the Tiger and the NH 90 is another bag of nails. Most of the important bits of a lot of the equipment you listed are American parts such as engines,radars, weapons,avionics, spare parts, simulation etc,etc.,all of which can be subject to American sanction if Australia makes a decision the Yanks don't like. Elements of the Aus Army wanted the Leo because of the diesel engine, instead of being stuck with a fuel hungry turbine that is no longer in production but other opinions prevailed,as America has a surfeit of M1s and is anxious to sell them on. i admire Australian character and resilience as much as the next guy but when it comes to selling weapons,Uncle Sam will apply economic and political pressure until it gets a deal, albeit loaded heavily in it's favour. They have the economic clout to sell weapons at a discount to force a sale and get the foot in the door. If you want to see a nation that stands up to American sales pressure, look to France. Allied to the Yanks but more than happy to give the Yanks the shoulder if it interferes with the interests of France.
          At least your post above is a hell of lot more substantive than simplistically calling them out as puppets who will buying anything and everything America. Yes they do buy American quite frequently just like my lot across the ditch does as well. Our lot were under no pressure to buy the UH-60M over the NH90. The Yanks did not pack a sad about that. BTW the French also are very careful with their IP and source codes and too drive a hard bargain and all power to them. That is how it is in the big boys pants wearing world. The RAAF like a number of other countries bought the P-8A for the very good reason it is frankly better than anything else in the airborne maritime domain awareness space. Ditto for a number of other capabilities they bought. Not because the Yanks told them too. They often buy American because it works. If something else works better they buy that.

          BTW the ANAO review outlines in detail why the Australians chose the Abrams over the RUAG Panzer 87/WE if we are to get precise. Acquisitions like that are a bit more in depth than what the odd digger or two may dream up as potential issues on the internet. Things like survivability, interoperability, force doctrine, whole life support are all in the mix in these decisions.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Anzac View Post
            Of course because the Aussies have shown up to every bun fight that the Brits and Yanks have been involved with over the last 125 years they have actually had more combat experience time than both of them. The Aussies did a decade in Vietnam which the UK did not go to and of course the yanks showed up late to both WW1 and WW2.
            Not sure about the 'Yanks' but the 'Brits' (without the 'Aussies')...

            Kenya 1952 - 1956

            Suez 1956

            Cyprus 1955 - 1959*

            Oman 1957 - 1959

            Aden 1967

            Northern Ireland 1969-2007

            Falklands War 1982

            Sierra Leone 2000

            There are others but you get the jist hopefully.

            Certainly in the early 90s I can recall a popular British Army recruiting video which pointed out that the only year since 1945 the army hadn't been engaged on operations was 1968.

            As an aside; Vietnam...the British Army were active in Vietnam fighting the communist insurgency there between 1945 and 1946.

            They withdrew and were replaced by the re-built post - WW2 French Army.

            Vietnam being a French colony.



            *An old friend of mine, dead now about 8 years, served during this conflict with the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers.

            It was brutally nasty...and he wasn't a man prone to exaggeration.





            'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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            • #21
              Ah - genuinely forgot the Falklands. To be fair Spider I was considering more the bigger set piece stuff other than the Poms more inglorious colonial policing efforts.

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              • #22
                AIR 7003 Armed UCAV Project Cancelled
                Kym Bergmann/Canberra

                At first it appeared to be an April fool’s joke, officials confirmed in Senate Estimates that the government is about to scrap the purchase of long range, uncrewed MQ-9Bs. This extraordinary decision will be depriving the RAAF of an important element of combat and surveillance capability – as the current conflict between Ukraine and Russia is clearly demonstrating.

                The version of the aircraft that the RAAF was set to acquire is based on the U.K. SkyGuardian program and would have seen an initial 12 aircraft based at Edinburgh in South Australia. With endurance of more than 24 hours and armed with a variety of weapons such as Hellfire missiles and laser guided bombs, Predators have become the platform of choice for strikes against terrorist organisations throughout the Middle East and Africa.


                It is rather strange. Cancelling a $1.2B project like this. One which would have had a fair bit of utility for the ADF and provided for a greater ISR capture. The irony is that a couple of recent ADF projects have been curtailed as they are looking to find money to boost the Intelligence Services budgets instead.

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                • #23
                  The ADF's first MQ-4C Triton has been rolled out: "Australia’s first MQ-4C Triton Remotely Piloted Aircraft System was rolled out in September as part of a partnership between the Department of Defence, US Navy and Northrop Grumman." https://news.defence.gov.au/capabili...n-touches-down

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                  • #24
                    The USAF has acquired a MQ-28 Ghost Bat developed and manufactured by Boeing Australia in collaboration with the RAAF to assist in the development of drone technologies. It will be interesting to see how this progresses. https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...ne-for-testing
                    Last edited by SouthernOne; 1 November 2022, 06:36.

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                    • #25
                      https://www.dsca.mil/press-media/maj...0j-30-aircraft

                      The RAAF are ordering 24 C-130J-30 Hercules for $6.35 Billion to replace the 12 C-130J-30s they acquired 23 year ago.

                      This adds to the 29 Boeing AH-64E Apache Attack Helicopters, 40 UH-60M Black Hawk Medium lift helicopters, 12 MH-60R's, 16 LUH-SOF helicopters, 4 MC-55A Peregrine's, 7 MQ-4C Triton's, 6 Boeing MQ-28 Ghost Bats, 24 Lockheed C-130J-30 Hercules, and further 2 P-8A's and 18 F-35A's that are on order / under delivery to the ADF.
                      Last edited by Anzac; 3 November 2022, 11:49.

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                      • #26
                        Surprised to realise the J model is around that long.
                        For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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