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  • #46
    and the 2nd one

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    • #47
      A good overview of the cuts
      The UK Ministry of Defence has today released its long-awaited defence command paper confirming previously rumoured reports that troop numbers, infantry fighting vehicles (IFVs) and main battle tanks would be cut.

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      • #48
        Obsolescent and outgunned: the British Army’s armoured vehicle capability
        Fifth Report of Session 2019–21Report, together with formal minutes relating to the report
        Ordered by the House of Commons
        to be printed 9 March 2021

        https://committees.parliament.uk/pub...50325/default/

        ps: I now see that APC has already referenced this report in another section. I still reckon that its relevant to this thread also so I'll leave it stand.
        Last edited by Archimedes; 23 March 2021, 01:32.
        Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum

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        • #49
          These reports were strong on buzzwords, but thin on detail.
          Yesterday's speech clarified matters somewhat, but only the full transcript will see who will go and who will stay. The Army will be cut by about 10000 though, and anything legacy will be heading for the scrapyard. No warrior upgrade (so can presume that FV400series, and any remaining CVRT will be finding their way into private hands soon enough. Ajax is the basket in which all the eggs are being placed. A cut in MBT numbers also, though unclear if the SLEP for Chal II will go ahead. It is no longer fit for purpose against a modern enemy.
          We know Hercs, Pumas and possibly chinooks are also due for the chop, but unclear where the tactical transport will come from instead. Puma was a workhorse. It was the transit minibus of helicopters. Problem was it was a Mk2 Transit, and passing the MOT was starting to become an issue. No comparable heli currently in production. S92 maybe, but can't see the UK buying something that wasn't UK made.
          German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
          German 2: Private? I am a general!
          German 1: That is the bad news.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
            These reports were strong on buzzwords, but thin on detail.
            Yesterday's speech clarified matters somewhat, but only the full transcript will see who will go and who will stay. The Army will be cut by about 10000 though, and anything legacy will be heading for the scrapyard. No warrior upgrade (so can presume that FV400series, and any remaining CVRT will be finding their way into private hands soon enough. Ajax is the basket in which all the eggs are being placed. A cut in MBT numbers also, though unclear if the SLEP for Chal II will go ahead. It is no longer fit for purpose against a modern enemy.
            We know Hercs, Pumas and possibly chinooks are also due for the chop, but unclear where the tactical transport will come from instead. Puma was a workhorse. It was the transit minibus of helicopters. Problem was it was a Mk2 Transit, and passing the MOT was starting to become an issue. No comparable heli currently in production. S92 maybe, but can't see the UK buying something that wasn't UK made.
            Warrior to be incrementally replaced by more Boxer as required.

            Ajax is to equip the RAC RECCE Regiments / elements of the proposed Deep Strike Brigade.

            Oddly I understand the 432 will soldier on...though again there are Boxer variants proposed which can fulfill some of the roles currently undertaken by 432 (Bulldog).

            Challenger to be upgraded to Challenger 3 variant x150.

            Pumas to be replaced possibly by AW 149...nostalgia...I've flown in Pumas most of my working life from the NI /ROI border to Afghanistan...they've always been good to me.

            Sorry to see them go but its their time.

            The Army will require an airframe small enough to land them into small PBs...smaller than Merlin or Chinook.

            The nine Chinook airframes which are going are to be replaced on a 1 for 1 basis with the latest versions...the RAF will operate x65 Chinooks.

            Future Infantry document to follow in the summer.

            I'm breaking cover slightly...and I'll only say this...I believe despite what the Cold War Veterans community are saying these are genuinely interesting times to be in the UK Armed Forces...and overall I personally feel...from what I know so far... that this has been a positive Defence Review...for the UK Armed Forces.

            Just wish I was 20 and in the Royal Navy...

            Met a Kid from my village over Christmas leave...he's a trainee observer in the Fleet Air Arm...good for him but I wish I was that age again!!
            'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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            • #51
              Originally posted by spider View Post

              Warrior to be incrementally replaced by more Boxer as required.

              Ajax is to equip the RAC RECCE Regiments / elements of the proposed Deep Strike Brigade.

              Oddly I understand the 432 will soldier on...though again there are Boxer variants proposed which can fulfill some of the roles currently undertaken by 432 (Bulldog).

              Challenger to be upgraded to Challenger 3 variant x150.

              Pumas to be replaced possibly by AW 149...nostalgia...I've flown in Pumas most of my working life from the NI /ROI border to Afghanistan...they've always been good to me.

              Sorry to see them go but its their time.

              The Army will require an airframe small enough to land them into small PBs...smaller than Merlin or Chinook.

              The nine Chinook airframes which are going are to be replaced on a 1 for 1 basis with the latest versions...the RAF will operate x65 Chinooks.

              Future Infantry document to follow in the summer.

              I'm breaking cover slightly...and I'll only say this...I believe despite what the Cold War Veterans community are saying these are genuinely interesting times to be in the UK Armed Forces...and overall I personally feel...from what I know so far... that this has been a positive Defence Review...for the UK Armed Forces.

              Just wish I was 20 and in the Royal Navy...

              Met a Kid from my village over Christmas leave...he's a trainee observer in the Fleet Air Arm...good for him but I wish I was that age again!!
              It sounds like a big gamble.
              From what I can read of it all, there will just be four infantry brigades, two heavy and two light.
              Everything else is specialised, deep strike, air manoeuvre, special ops, security force.
              That will cause problems when it comes to long term operations, which has always been the norm where they would normally deploy brigade formations for years or decades.

              One of the reasons the Puma helicopter is still around is that he can be transported in an A400, so what replaces it will need to be able to do the same.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Rhodes View Post

                It sounds like a big gamble.
                From what I can read of it all, there will just be four infantry brigades, two heavy and two light.
                Everything else is specialised, deep strike, air manoeuvre, special ops, security force.
                That will cause problems when it comes to long term operations, which has always been the norm where they would normally deploy brigade formations for years or decades.

                One of the reasons the Puma helicopter is still around is that he can be transported in an A400, so what replaces it will need to be able to do the same.
                I agree it is a gamble; every Defence Review is because its a re-prioritising of increasingly expensive precious funds and assets. The RN definitely seem to be where the main focus of Defence Spending is at present...then the RAF... and the Army sucking the hind tit.

                At present the BA has 33 Inf Bns (Regular) and 19 Inf Bns (Reserve) organised into 7 Infantry Brigades, the Spec Inf Group and 16AA X sitting independently.

                Only one Regular Infantry Battalion is being cut though, so the 4 Brigades must be going to be larger...the future Infantry model is due to be published later this year.

                The nature of warfare and the Global picture is changing...but at the end of the day its the Infantry who have to take and hold ground on the battlefield.

                If the BA get involved in any large-scale overseas operations in the future, it will be limited to a Bde Deployment as part of a larger formation with our allies.

                Didn't know that about Puma...that's interesting thank you. Hopefully they will have a (flying) future somewhere else.



                'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Rhodes View Post

                  It sounds like a big gamble.
                  From what I can read of it all, there will just be four infantry brigades, two heavy and two light.
                  Everything else is specialised, deep strike, air manoeuvre, special ops, security force.
                  That will cause problems when it comes to long term operations, which has always been the norm where they would normally deploy brigade formations for years or decades.

                  One of the reasons the Puma helicopter is still around is that he can be transported in an A400, so what replaces it will need to be able to do the same.
                  Leonardo is pitching the AW149 for the puma replacement.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by northie View Post

                    Leonardo is pitching the AW149 for the puma replacement.
                    Saw that, with the proviso it gets built in Yeovil.
                    Anyone else remember the Westland Affair?
                    Difficult to see the AW149 replacing the Puma when the Super puma descendant is also being pitched.
                    German 1: Private Schnutz, I have bad news for you.
                    German 2: Private? I am a general!
                    German 1: That is the bad news.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post

                      Saw that, with the proviso it gets built in Yeovil.
                      Anyone else remember the Westland Affair?
                      Difficult to see the AW149 replacing the Puma when the Super puma descendant is also being pitched.
                      The Super Puma or one of its variants seems like the logical direct replacement, however, the Griffin, Twin Huey and Dauphin helicopters are also going to be replaced by whatever replaces the Puma so a smaller heli like the AW149 or Blackhawk is likely.

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                      • #56
                        Bell are throwing their hat in the ring now also...

                        https://www.janes.com/defence-news/n...er-requirement
                        'History is a vast early warning system'. Norman Cousins

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                        • #57
                          Apparently Airbus are offering the H-175, would much prefer the H-225, UH-70 or even the NH-90 instead of what is being offered at the moment. Hopefully they will no go "we have to support Westland again"

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