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  • The SS

    Judging by recent posts here, there are posters who seem to believe the SS were no worse than any other military organisation.

    Discuss.
    .
    .
    .
    With 50,000 men getting killed a week, who's going to miss a pigeon?

    Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people.

  • #2
    Originally posted by yellowjacket View Post
    Judging by recent posts here, there are posters who seem to believe the SS were no worse than any other military organisation.

    Discuss.
    Other military organisations have committed similar crimes on one scale or another. The Germans institutionalised, even legalised, war crimes and genocide and the SS organised and participated in Nazi state policy. If you use body count as your yard stick then the SS was the worst group of war criminals in history.

    Leaving body count aside Babi Yar and My Lai are two sides of the one coin as are Amritsar and Oradour Sur Glane, Malmedy and Ballyseedy.

    Originally posted by kermit
    I for one would like to hear the opinion of Zulu and waffenhistory on this matter.
    The Zulus didn't take any prisoners either.
    Last edited by Groundhog; 15 March 2007, 14:02.
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    Say NO to violence against Women

    Originally posted by hedgehog
    My favourite moment was when the
    Originally posted by hedgehog
    red headed old dear got a smack on her ginger head

    Comment


    • #3
      certain groups within the SS done terrible things as like all other armies in wars going back to time of the Romans and further . This is not the issue though. The SS were an elite fighting force who featured in many of WW2 s most known and recoreded battles and possible what one would call the highlights of the war , from Normandy invasion to Ardennes offensive , battle for Berlin etc . Because of the 1% of SS who were involved in the Camps its not fair to tarnish them all with the one brush . There were so many SS units its wrong to brush all for the crimes of a few . The problem here is some posters try to brush hisorical reenactment and reenacotrs witht the same brush and its pathetic . Historical reenactmetn is like the best from of history lesson one can get . For the general public and those interested to see the vehicles , uniforms and weapons , the cloours and the variation and an indept look at all this on display its a rare oppertunity . Always they have seen these things on TV in old black and White tv news reels and to then see this stuff in living colour is fantastic . Always the feedbck has been fantastic and the comments positive . Educated people never get on their high horse as they have the intelligence to know what they are looking at and see the ammount of effort involved in the resoration of these vehicles , the attention to detail etc of weapons and uniforms etc , all this shows the educated man and woman what a rare thing they are seeing at a publisc show or historical reenactment . Its only the ignorant ranters who try to jump on their own high horse and tarnish everyone and everything with the NAZI s or NEO NAZIs or shout about glorification of the fore mentioned . The Group Battlegroup south have spent years putting together this collection and producing this public show to a point where it now is on continuous demand for public shows , history presentations and historical documentaries and films . Not one mention of National socialism fervour ever . Its pretty pathetic to have read some of the posts i saw here in the last week or so . One would have tyhought that so called military men who profess to have an interest in all things military would apprecitae what they are looking at and apprecitae the rareness of it all and if an oppertunity arose to see this gear in action etc , one would have thought these people would have taken the oppertunity to view it and maybe even take some photos . I have an interest as do many of the members of Battlegroup south in all thigs military , be it british , American , German Russian , whatever , SOme of us travelled to the Uk last year to see a Jagdpanther tank being unveiled after 10 years of restioration . Like wise we went to see the ex Irish Air corp WW2 fighter when it came to Baldonnel last year . We travelled to see the AMerican cemetry oin Normandy last year also and also went to the german war graves at La Cambe . This year we will take all our motorcycles and Kubelwagens to Normandy again for DDAy week and meet the veterans of both sides and spend a week there meeting them all . I think if american and British veterans dont start ranting about being Nazis etc , and compliment us on our efforts then no one on this forum has the right to do so .People should either debate SS units in WW" or debate Reenactment merits etc , dont try tie the two in together because of the lekes of a few thick ignorant fools who know better . Look at the big picture and see the trees from the woods . Because other members of our group do British WW2 reenactment does this mean they are not true irish men or refered to in derogitory manner . Why should they . Its all about history and portraying it properly . One fool even went as far as trying to bring in the racial hatred act ... a little knowledge is a dangerous thing ... read the act properly and thoroughly . If this is the level of posters on theis site then i really think the moderators should try and sort it out . These guys are doing themselves and this site no credit . As a forum its pretty poor when one cant openly reply to posts fairly , first the moderator must decide if he agrees with it and then decide if he will issue points against you for replying etc . Its a bit lame and one sided . I ahve sid m,y pice and have no wish to say anymore as i dont wish to post in this forum any longer . I hope people see the difference and the whole idea of reenactment opposed to political activist/ Nazis .

      [MOD: IMO has no objection to users saying controversial things, once they aren't trolling. Your moderation is part of site policy and is nothing specific to do with you. Try reading the parts of IMO that aren't about the SS and you might find out why]
      [The REAL Mod: The problem with WaffenHistorries Post are not what he said but the way in which it was said. Reply fairly fine enough, but insulting other users of the board is not allowed! ]
      Last edited by Docman; 16 March 2007, 13:15.

      Comment


      • #4
        Except the actions of the SS weren't rare occurances or abberations, carried out in the heat of battle or it's aftermath. There were no confused circumstances, no excuse that this was the normal accepted way of doing things (like the Romans and other ancients might about massacres in their time).

        Mai Lai / Ballyseedy / Amritsar were disgraceful murderous unauthorised abberations which did not represent American / Irish / British policy. The SS carried out thousands of Mai Lais and on a much larger scale, with the full authority of their chain of command.
        .
        .
        .
        With 50,000 men getting killed a week, who's going to miss a pigeon?

        Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people.

        Comment


        • #5
          How about the communists and Red Armies of various ilks...they've murdered more people than everyone else put together. Yet, nobody raises an eyebrow when some trendy student type wears his Che, Lenin, CCCP, etc paraphanalia about town.
          No-one, I think, is in my tree...

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by waffenhistory View Post
            certain groups within the SS done terrible things as like all other armies in wars going back to time of the Romans and further ...
            The discussion is about the SS not SS Re-enactors.

            Aside from the death camps, the SS committed many crimes. Oradour, Malmedy, Lidice, Wormhout, the list is probably endless if you want to research it. War criminality was institutionalised in the SS as a whole not just in those who staffed the camps.
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            Say NO to violence against Women

            Originally posted by hedgehog
            My favourite moment was when the
            Originally posted by hedgehog
            red headed old dear got a smack on her ginger head

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by strummer View Post
              How about the communists and Red Armies of various ilks...they've murdered more people than everyone else put together. Yet, nobody raises an eyebrow when some trendy student type wears his Che, Lenin, CCCP, etc paraphanalia about town.
              Yes they have but apparently they haven't been declared a criminal group as the SS have so they get off scot free.
              Last edited by Groundhog; 15 March 2007, 14:40.
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              Say NO to violence against Women

              Originally posted by hedgehog
              My favourite moment was when the
              Originally posted by hedgehog
              red headed old dear got a smack on her ginger head

              Comment


              • #8
                If I saw NKVD reenactors, I'd say the every same, but they don't seem to be as attractive to the same people - maybe the uniforms aren't fabulous enough?

                certain groups within the SS done terrible things as like all other armies in wars going back to time of the Romans and further .
                In the SS case, it's pretty much the entire friggin organisation, not just solated groups. Comparing them to the Romans indicates you don't understand that civilisation might have developed a bit in the last two milennia.

                Because of the 1% of SS who were involved in the Camps its not fair to tarnish them all with the one brush .
                So you think the massacres of entire towns was OK as long as it didn't take place in a camp?

                As for being an elite force, theyalso suffered huge casualties when prudent leadership would have utilised tactical withdrawal, and at the end of the day they lost, beaten by the Untermensch.
                .
                .
                .
                With 50,000 men getting killed a week, who's going to miss a pigeon?

                Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by yellowjacket View Post
                  this was the normal accepted way of doing things (like the Romans and other ancients might about massacres in their time).

                  Mai Lai / Ballyseedy / Amritsar were disgraceful murderous unauthorised abberations which did not represent American / Irish / British policy. .
                  Oh reaaaalllly?!

                  What about the Native American Concentration camps of the Mid to late 1800s in America that the German concentration camps were modelled on?

                  What about the Boer Concentration camps by the British?

                  These were all officially sanctioned Government policy
                  "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    See my bit about civilisation moving on?

                    You're using moral relativism here -i.e. what the SS did was fine because everyone has done it at some stage. Reprehensible apologism.

                    And if you can convince me the Konzentrationslager were based on Indian reservations, Ill be mightily impressed at the scholarship involved. I fail to recollect reading about crematoria duringt he Boer War either.
                    .
                    .
                    .
                    With 50,000 men getting killed a week, who's going to miss a pigeon?

                    Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by yellowjacket View Post
                      ...There were no confused circumstances, no excuse that this was the normal accepted way of doing things (like the Romans and other ancients might about massacres in their time)...
                      From a Nazi point of view of course exterminating Jews, massacring civilians etc was not just the accepted way of doing things, in some cases it was a requirement of German law. The Romans thought nailing people to a cross because they followed a weird religion was fine. If it is wrong to crucify a Jew in 1944AD then it was equally wrong to crucify one in 44AD.

                      Originally posted by ZULU View Post
                      Oh reaaaalllly?!

                      What about the Native American Concentration camps of the Mid to late 1800s in America that the German concentration camps were modelled on?

                      What about the Boer Concentration camps by the British?

                      These were all officially sanctioned Government policy
                      You're confusing Extermination Camps with concentration camps and reservations.

                      Originally posted by yellowjacket View Post
                      You're using moral relativism here -i.e. what the SS did was fine because everyone has done it at some stage. Reprehensible apologism.
                      No he isn't and neither do I when I use similar arguments. Pointing out that Group B has committed the same crimes as Group A does not absolve Group A or B.
                      Last edited by Groundhog; 15 March 2007, 15:53.
                      sigpic
                      Say NO to violence against Women

                      Originally posted by hedgehog
                      My favourite moment was when the
                      Originally posted by hedgehog
                      red headed old dear got a smack on her ginger head

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Groundhog View Post
                        No he isn't and neither do I when I use similar arguments. Pointing out that Group B has committed the same crimes as Group A does not absolve Group A or B.
                        I thought I explained my position on this numerous times. Or is it some people are blind?

                        Thanks by the way. Glad to see someone hasn't gone off the handle.
                        "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Groundhog View Post

                          You're confusing Extermination Camps with concentration camps and reservations.
                          .
                          Whats the difference.

                          I'd hardly call the concentration of 100,000 people (mainly women and children) into a small area: Conducting a scorched earth policy in the area around the camp; and on purpose, starving the populace to death; as being a reservation or anything short of extermination.

                          Even Loyd George accused the Government of continuing a policy of extermination

                          Anyhoo, back to the SS
                          "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ZULU View Post
                            Whats the difference.
                            The difference is that it was the policy of neither the British or US governments to exterminate the Boers or Native Americans. The placing of Boers in concentration camps was intended to deny the Boer Commandos the support of that population. The unfortunate consequence of course was that diseases spread rapidly through the crowded camps, killing thousands of women and children and handing the Boers (and later on the Germans) a propaganda weapon. Putting Native Americans on reservations was a form of apartheid I suppose. In neither case can anybody claim there was a policy of extermination. I would be very doubtful that there was a policy of starving people to death. If there was they would surely have killed many more than 27,000 Boers.

                            That said the results were frequently the same anyway.

                            Originally posted by ZULU View Post
                            Even Loyd George accused the Government of continuing a policy of extermination

                            Anyhoo, back to the SS
                            This would be the same Lloyd George whose government sent the Black and Tans to Ireland. He was also Prime Minister at the time of the Amritsar massacre in India and his air force used mustard gas against Iraqi civilians. So Lloyd George can get down of his lofty pedestal.
                            Last edited by Groundhog; 15 March 2007, 17:57.
                            sigpic
                            Say NO to violence against Women

                            Originally posted by hedgehog
                            My favourite moment was when the
                            Originally posted by hedgehog
                            red headed old dear got a smack on her ginger head

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I think it should come back to what the SS stood for. Whatever you can say about the allies, they were usually welcomed as liberators when they came rumbling into town ( the western allies anyway). Did you ever hear of French/Belgian/Dutch people shedding a tear when the SS left? The SS swore an oath of alligence to Der Furher, that means that they bought into everything that Nayional Socialism profeced, including the stuff about inferior races, 'living space' and the final solution. The SS fought to the death to protect an instution that was evil to the core and you cant argue with that.
                              Im Ron Burgendy??

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