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Hah! I'd forgotten about the wedding scene! Well, just goes to show that ugly pretend nazis can get married too....Beyond sad.As for the guy flogging the Belsen trolley, Jesus wept! I couldn't look at it without having visions of skeletal corpses on it, about to go into the oven. The Panorama guy should have bought it and burnt it on the spot.
regards
GttC
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I hate to be a sh1t-stirrer (actually I don't), but which army ever fought entirely honourably.
the Amry who has the Motto "Blood and Fire"
the Salvation Army always fought honourable
and Pedantic Pete
the only Army to be convicted of War Crimes in the West was the Germans
therefore without any convictions the Allies were honourable
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
the only Army to be convicted of War Crimes in the West was the Germans
therefore without any convictions the Allies were honourable
I seem to remember this time last year you and I were at each other's throats over the Israeli army, which has never been convicted of a war crime. Do I take it then that you now concede the Israelis fight honourably.
But I digress.
Allied bombing (mostly British) in WW2 killed at least 600,000 German civilians. And these were not incidental casualties but a calculated campaign to kill them, thus lowering German morale, killing factory workers and basically wrecking German cities. Dresden was bombed in Feb 1945 apparently for the simple reason that it was on a list of cities for destruction which the RAF hadn't yet got around to and time was running out.
The Russians massacred hundreds of Polish Army officers in Katyn Forest, conducted a campaign or rape and terror in Berlin and east Germany for months after the German surrender and halted it's advance outside Warsaw in 1944 to allow the Germans time to finish off the Warsaw uprising thus killing off any potential trouble makers for the Commies.
12,000 French civilians died in the Allied actions leading up to D-Day and another 20,000 in the battle for Normandy.
Norwegian and British troops used German POWs after the war to clear minefields in Norway, frequently by getting them to walk through the minefields. The French did the same in France. An estimated 2,000 German POWs were killed or injured each month after the war's end until the end of 1945 in mine clearances. Which was fair enough, after all they were their mines.
There were several instances of shootings of POWs and Italian civilians in Italy by the Americans.
And of course the Atomic bombings of Nagsaki and Hiroshima were designed to impress upon the Russians the power of the US rather than cow the Japanese into submission.
None of the above should be taken to mean that I have any sympathy for German, Japanese or Italians. Far from it, they were bastrads, they had it coming and their decisive defeat in WW2 has has benefited mankind greatly. Nor should it be taken as justification for German, Japanese or Italian brutality. I merely want illustrate the point that there is little honour in war.
sigpic Say NO to violence against Women
Originally posted by hedgehog
My favourite moment was when the
Originally posted by hedgehog
red headed old dear got a smack on her ginger head
I seem to remember this time last year you and I were at each other's throats over the Israeli army, which has never been convicted of a war crime. Do I take it then that you now concede the Israelis fight honourably
1- I never go at people throats
2- The Israelis were not part of the Allies
3-therfore they dont come into the equation
4-I dont think there actions in Lebanon last summer could in any stretch of hte imigation be termed honourable either
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
.....the only Army to be convicted of War Crimes in the West was the Germans, therefore without any convictions the Allies were honourable
Hedge, this reminds me of a quote I heard somewhere before. It goes along the lines
of "The victors write the history books"
As for Groundhog's point about the bombing of Dresden... it has been acknowledged
in the history books since that this was a needless bombing - Dresden was not a target
of military significance. In fact, work colleagues of mine who have been in Dresden
remarked on the fact that it is a lovely city, but to this day, bears the scars of that
infamous bombing raid
"Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"
has anyone read read where have all the bullets gone??? or good bye soldier by spike milligan,
he gives lots of example of civilians in italy complaining that they were afraid to walk the streets when allied soldiers were about,
but having no such fear round the germans,
But there's no danger
It's a professional career
Though it could be arranged
With just a word in Mr. Churchill's ear
If you're out of luck you're out of work
We could send you to johannesburg.
Hi turbocalves
The Germans were very willing to give their own men a taste of the noose or the guillotine, or at best, a stint in a punishment unit clearing mines, if they had committed deliberate crimes such as rape or murder against ordinary civvies.The average German soldier knew full well that he'd be for the high jump if he transgressed against those civvies that the Germans weren't actively pursuing.I read somewhere that they executed around 15000 of their own for all sorts of crimes.
The Americans executed only one man for desertion(despite there being huge quantities of men AWOL) but at least 15 for anti-civilian crimes such as rape/murder.they could be tough enough when they wanted to be.
One point about Dresden;there were military targets there, such as railyards, barracks, industrial districts.Dresden wasn't some oasis of non-production of war equipment.Given the scale of total war production and the dispersal of industry required to avoid Allied air attack, Dresden certainly contributed to German war production, just like every British city. It's greatest importance was as a transit hub, because of it's location.Personally,I think it was simple revenge for the destruction visited on Allied cities.
regards
GttC
4-I dont think there actions in Lebanon last summer could in any stretch of hte imigation be termed honourable either
As you well know I didn't say the Israelis were part of the Alliance against Germany although they actually were. Moshe Dyan for instance lost his eye fighting with the British in Lebanon against the Vichy French.
Anyway there is no logic in your argument that the Israelis bombing Lebanese civilians is less honourable than the British bombing German civilians.
sigpic Say NO to violence against Women
Originally posted by hedgehog
My favourite moment was when the
Originally posted by hedgehog
red headed old dear got a smack on her ginger head
...One point about Dresden;there were military targets there, such as railyards, barracks, industrial districts. Dresden wasn't some oasis of non-production of war equipment.Given the scale of total war production and the dispersal of industry required to avoid Allied air attack, Dresden certainly contributed to German war production, just like every British city. It's greatest importance was as a transit hub, because of it's location. ...GttC
By mid February 1945 when Dresden was destroyed, it didn't matter what was located there. Anything produced by it's factories wasn't going anywhere because the road and rail network no longer existed nor did the fuel to move it. In fact the British and US armies were complaining that the mountains of rubble created by the air forces were holding up their advance.
As I said, Dresden was destroyed because it was a German city on a list of places to be bombed.
sigpic Say NO to violence against Women
Originally posted by hedgehog
My favourite moment was when the
Originally posted by hedgehog
red headed old dear got a smack on her ginger head
As you well know I didn't say the Israelis were part of the Alliance against Germany although they actually were. Moshe Dyan for instance lost his eye fighting with the British in Lebanon against the Vichy French.
Anyway there is no logic in your argument that the Israelis bombing Lebanese civilians is less honourable than the British bombing German civilians.
well done to the Israelis on founding of the state a good few years before they
actually brought it to the UN for a vote
and if you actually bothered to read my point
I said
dont think there actions in Lebanon last summer could in any stretch of hte imigation be termed honourable either
I also dont think the bombing of civilians by any side is honourable
my question is very very simple- if people want to complicate it, well PM me and I will show you how I started this thread
Should IMO which is intrinsically linked (like it or not) to the Irish Defence Forces
advertise the renenactors who dress up and pretend that they are a notorious ss unit that
killed innocent men women children and pows. and this same unit was convicted for war
crime
and there are plenty of other Armies or even german Units that these boys could play
dress up as
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
....advertise the renenactors who dress up and pretend that they are a notorious ss unit that
killed innocent men women children and pows.
Does IMO really advertise the SS re-enactment unit as such? Well I suppose this thread actually does that quite effectively. I for instance didn't know anything about them until I did a google search yesterday as a result of reading this thread.
.....there are plenty of other Armies or even german Units that these boys could play
dress up as
There are. But the point you seem to be avoiding is that there are no units that they could re-enact that have not committed a war crime, convicted or not.
There are. But the point you seem to be avoiding is that there are no units that they could re-enact that have not committed a war crime, convicted or not.
SO you reckon that there is NOT ONE UNit that reenactors could dress up
a Unit that has never been tainted by accusations of war crimes
is that what your saying
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
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