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  • National Museum at Collins Bks...

    Hi all
    I went to see the Soldiers and Chiefs exhibition today.First impression: patchy. Good exhibits, such as the Ford, Bren carrier, Bofors, 12-pdr and audio-visual but...the aircraft are jammed in, with the Vampire almost touching a pillar and it's decals are peeling off...there's very little on the Don or the NS, by comparison to the Army. A lot of things are, to my mind, missing; no Bren gun, no BAP, no Vickers, no anti-tank, no comms, very little on WW II...it's hit and miss, really whereas the 1916 and 17th/18th/19th century stuff on another floor is quite detailed and very well sorted and the actual quality of the stuff (uniforms/weapons/flags and badges,etc) is excellent.........Lads, the Ford armoured car.What in God's name were they thinking, when they sent them to the Congo? The world was groaning with surplus armour in the early 60s and the DF could only roust up obsolete boiler-plate from Carlow?!! I had a good look at the Ford and it must have been horrendous in African conditions.The only sensible thing they did was leave them there when they pulled out..............Does anyone have a good account of the Battle of At-Tiri? one of the guns displayed was stated to have been captured from the shot-up DFF half-track.
    regards
    GttC
    Incidentally, the condition of the artillery pieces on display is a credit to whoever restored them.The 18 pdr looks like it's ready to fire...

  • #2
    Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    Hi all
    I went to see the Soldiers and Chiefs exhibition today.First impression: patchy. Good exhibits, such as the Ford, Bren carrier, Bofors, 12-pdr and audio-visual but...the aircraft are jammed in, with the Vampire almost touching a pillar and it's decals are peeling off...there's very little on the Don or the NS, by comparison to the Army. A lot of things are, to my mind, missing; no Bren gun, no BAP, no Vickers, no anti-tank, no comms, very little on WW II...it's hit and miss, really whereas the 1916 and 17th/18th/19th century stuff on another floor is quite detailed and very well sorted and the actual quality of the stuff (uniforms/weapons/flags and badges,etc) is excellent.........Lads, the Ford armoured car.What in God's name were they thinking, when they sent them to the Congo? The world was groaning with surplus armour in the early 60s and the DF could only roust up obsolete boiler-plate from Carlow?!! I had a good look at the Ford and it must have been horrendous in African conditions.The only sensible thing they did was leave them there when they pulled out..............Does anyone have a good account of the Battle of At-Tiri? one of the guns displayed was stated to have been captured from the shot-up DFF half-track.
    regards
    GttC
    Incidentally, the condition of the artillery pieces on display is a credit to whoever restored them.The 18 pdr looks like it's ready to fire...
    The last National Museum Thread

    http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com...ead.php?t=9661

    The At Tiri Thread

    http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com...highlight=tiri


    The Bap was a service weapon until 4 months ago so it won't appear in museums for some time yet.

    Irish troops went to the congo in WW1 uniforms and with WW2 weapons so antique armoured cars was just par for the course.

    Maybe the AC should get the Vampires back in the air and send the Battle of Britain flight back to Switzerland.
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    Say NO to violence against Women

    Originally posted by hedgehog
    My favourite moment was when the
    Originally posted by hedgehog
    red headed old dear got a smack on her ginger head

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    • #3
      Hi Gh
      The Fords were totally obsolete and utterly unsuitable for tough African conditions.They were even beyond the relatively benign climate we have here...Even the Katangans were able to come up with Greyhound armoured cars, with a 37mm gun.The idea of sending men out to fight in a tropical climate, in blatantly inappropriate clothing,when the expertise of the USA and all the other UN countries was at hand is mindboggling.Blaming penny-pinching civil servants is one excuse that is used but it's an easy one to make.It was part of the problem but not all of it.The same kind of command inertia that left Quinlan's men in the shit in Jadotville sent the Irish out there with woeful equipment.
      The Vampire, at least, had 4 20mm cannon, ejection seats and can outrun a PC-9 like it was standing still.No wonder the Swiss kept them in service for so long.
      regards
      GttC

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
        Hi all

        Does anyone have a good account of the Battle of At-Tiri? one of the guns displayed was stated to have been captured from the shot-up DFF half-track.
        regards
        GttC
        Picture of the D.F.F. Half-track knocked out at Atiri, in this picture she has been towed out of the lane leading to the Irish position and is down the hill near the checkpoint, disabled by a 90mm through the engine, which in turn has also knocked the un-ditching roller out of its position on the front.

        Note also the G.P.M.G. spall around the door.

        Armed with a .5 and a .3 Browning.

        Connaught Stranger ex 46th Bn.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
          The idea of sending men out to fight in a tropical climate, in blatantly inappropriate clothing,when the expertise of the USA and all the other UN countries was at hand is mindboggling.
          It was a learning experience (often in unfortuate events), for example bulls wool was replaced by tropical uniforms and the 303 with the FN.

          Ireland in the 60s was completely different from now.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
            Hi all

            Does anyone have a good account of the Battle of At-Tiri? one of the guns displayed was stated to have been captured from the shot-up DFF half-track.
            regards
            GttC
            Picture of the D.F.F. Half-track knocked out at Atiri, after the battler, in this picture she has been towed out of the lane leading to the Irish position and is down the hill near the checkpoint, disabled by a 90mm through the engine, which in turn has also knocked the un-ditching roller out of its position on the front.

            Note also the G.P.M.G. spall around the door.

            Armed with a .5 and a .3 Browning in the rear.

            In facilitation of a DFF prisoner swop for the Irish troops captured in the O.P.'s behind the lines the half track was handed back to the D.F.F. as far as I can recall with the weaponry on board.

            Connaught Stranger ex 46th Bn.
            Attached Files

            Comment


            • #7
              Any body know which of the AML 90s was in that action ? as in whats the registration plate on the car in quaetion..might be worth preserving in time to come.
              Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Groundhog View Post
                The Bap was a service weapon until 4 months ago so it won't appear in museums for some time yet.
                Eeeeehhh.... the Steyr is on display in Collins Barracks museum.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                  Hi Gh
                  The Fords were totally obsolete and utterly unsuitable for tough African conditions....
                  I never said different. In 1960 the height of tactical training was probably the march past at the GOC's inspection. Hence Bulls wool in Katanga, home made armoured cars and Niemba.

                  Originally posted by Docman View Post
                  Eeeeehhh.... the Steyr is on display in Collins Barracks museum.
                  Don't blame me I didn't put it there. I just know the regulation prohibiting the display of service equipment in museums.
                  sigpic
                  Say NO to violence against Women

                  Originally posted by hedgehog
                  My favourite moment was when the
                  Originally posted by hedgehog
                  red headed old dear got a smack on her ginger head

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                    Any body know which of the AML 90s was in that action ? as in whats the registration plate on the car in quaetion..might be worth preserving in time to come.
                    You'd have to do some research as it would have had a UNIFIL Plate in Lebanon.
                    sigpic
                    Say NO to violence against Women

                    Originally posted by hedgehog
                    My favourite moment was when the
                    Originally posted by hedgehog
                    red headed old dear got a smack on her ginger head

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                      Any body know which of the AML 90s was in that action ? as in whats the registration plate on the car in quaetion..might be worth preserving in time to come.
                      The practise at the time of the 46th Battalion was to reverse the Irish issue registration plate and paint a UN number on the rear of it.

                      In the attached picture taken by myself, you can make out the "90" that took out the half-track in Atiri under tow to be repaired, after firing the shot the vehicle suffered a mechanical failure and could not be driven. The picture shows the convoy on the road from Atiri over Hill 880 turning towards the school in Hadatha.

                      Kevin in Deva, ex-46th Irish Batt.
                      Attached Files
                      Last edited by Connaught Stranger; 18 February 2008, 10:04.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Connaught Stranger View Post
                        The practise at the time of the 46th Battalion was to reverse the Irish issue registration plate and paint a UN number on the rear of it.

                        In the attached picture taken by myself, you can make out the "90" that took out the half-track in Atiri under tow to be repaired, after firing the shot the vehicle suffered a mechanical failure and could not be driven. The picture shows the convoy on the road from Atiri over Hill 880 turning towards the school in Hadatha.

                        Kevin in Deva, ex-46th Irish Batt.
                        So does anybody on the Board have a photo of the back of the 90's number plate?
                        sigpic
                        Say NO to violence against Women

                        Originally posted by hedgehog
                        My favourite moment was when the
                        Originally posted by hedgehog
                        red headed old dear got a smack on her ginger head

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I have a picture 0f 239 ARI still wearing the Irish Plate in the Leb..taken in july of 1978 with a bedford truck behind itIt shouldn't be too hard to get a plate number of the '90 involved, its not that we have that many of them and only lost one.

                          Ok Leb heads.. question..were the vehicles for the battalion overseas drawn from the one particular source or did all the ninties rotate in set rotation?

                          ie did the west supply for one group.. the east or the curragh for the next etc ?
                          Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                            I have a picture 0f 239 ARI still wearing the Irish Plate in the Leb..taken in july of 1978 with a bedford truck behind itIt shouldn't be too hard to get a plate number of the '90 involved, its not that we have that many of them and only lost one.

                            Ok Leb heads.. question..were the vehicles for the battalion overseas drawn from the one particular source or did all the ninties rotate in set rotation?

                            ie did the west supply for one group.. the east or the curragh for the next etc ?
                            Well each battalion did not bring it's own armour so presumably the ones that landed there in 1978 were the ones that came home in 2001. Unless one needed to be repatriated for a complete overhaul which I doubt.

                            So far we've established that the 43rd Bn's 90s had their Irish reg plates for a while, the 46th's had UNIFIL plates cunningly made by reversing the Irish plate and painting the UNIFIL number on (for demonstrational and instructional purposes we can call this a UNIFIL plate) and by the 61st Bn they had risen to the dizzy heights of a custom made UNIFIL plate.

                            All in all we are no further along the road to establishing which one was used to blow the fcuk outta the half track. That information is probably in the bowels of the Archives in the Brugha.
                            sigpic
                            Say NO to violence against Women

                            Originally posted by hedgehog
                            My favourite moment was when the
                            Originally posted by hedgehog
                            red headed old dear got a smack on her ginger head

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Hi HPT
                              "only lost one"...what's that about?...there's a fella keeps his own pet AML-90 (of Spanish origin) and he appears to know the story.Pillar of the Military Vehicle Collectors crowd, I believe.
                              regards
                              GttC

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