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  • Badges of rank

    Why do the Irish forces have 2 and 3 stars respectively to indicate the ranks of private. Also why is there no Lance Corporal rank. In the British Army a Pte would have no stripes and a Lance Corporal would have one stripe.

  • #2
    Mabye cause were not in the British army.............

    :flagwave: :flagwave: :flagwave: :flagwave: :flagwave:
    Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil...prayer, fasting, good works and so on. Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun. Eat leaden death, demon...

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    • #3
      Originally posted by T.I.M.
      Mabye cause were not in the British army
      I think that puts it rather succinctly.

      Frankly, if the army works without extra ranks, why bother having more?

      As was mentioned, the only reason the Irish went to two stripes for corp and 3 for sarge was commonality with other forces, so they knew who was talking to whom.

      Though given that a recruit has no rank insignia, why start at 2-star? Did there used to be a 1-star rank?

      Nor the american... a 2* is the equivalent of a Private, and a 3* is a pfc...

      Not entirely accurate. If memory serves, an Irish recruit becomes a 2-star once he finishes basic training, then gains his/her third upon finishing infantry training. Then as 3-stars, they go to their corps courses. All on-line privates are 3-stars.

      In the US system, there are four categories of private. PV1, PV2, PFC and SPC. (Say what you like, an SPC is basically an overpaid private). They usually don't have particular positions assigned to them (Though things may default that way.. for example a SAW gunner is likely to be a SPC or a loader a PFC/PV2.. these are simply factors that by the time the troop gets the experience required to be effective as a gunner, for example, he's been promoted by time-in-grade to SPC)

      It is theoretically possible for a soldier to arrive fully trained at his unit as an E-1/PV1 with no insignia at all, or (in my case) as an E-4. The differing ranks in the US system are really just there to show progression and for retention purposes (Let people think they're getting somewhere)

      Marines have lance-corporals though.

      NTM
      Driver, tracks, troops.... Drive and adjust!!

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      • #4
        I reckon the Irish should have an extra NCO rank between QMS and Sgt ,like a troop Sgt with lets say a Harp/Shamrock over the three Stripes. In the PDF they have plenty of NCO's to help the C/S but not in the Reserves.
        What do you guy's think.?????:flagwave: :flagwave:

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        • #5
          The US have WO 1,WO 2,WO 3,WO 4 WO 5,on top of the numberous NCO ranks of L/CPL,CPL,Sgt,Gunnery SGT,Command Sgt,Sgt Major and Sgt Major of the Army.What are the W/O's in the US Army there above NCO's and Below Officer ,but do you salute them call them Sir or what?????????

          :flagwave: :flagwave:

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          • #6
            Those enlisted ranks you refer to are for the US Marine Corp. The Warrant ranks are also the same in the US Army. Warrant Officers have their own "system" for the want of a better word. WO2 and above is entitled to a salute and is refered to as "Mister (name).

            Usually the WO's are in special technical jobs, maintenance, flight, etc and are the "master craftsmen" in their MOS. Warrant Officer School is a very very tough and demanding school. I saw them in training one time and i did not envy the predicament they were in!!!

            And you do not **** with a Warrant Officer, except maybe an Aviation guy!!!!!!!

            US Army enlisted ranks are

            E-1 PV1
            E-2 PV2
            E-3 PFC
            E-4 Spec
            E-5 Sgt
            E-6 Staff Sgt
            E-7 Sgt First Class
            E-8 Master Sgt
            E-9 Sgt Major

            Hope this helps.

            Later.
            No-one, I think, is in my tree...

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            • #7
              Strummer are WO actually commissioned !!

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              • #8
                Nope, they have a warrant, as the name suggests
                .
                .
                .
                With 50,000 men getting killed a week, who's going to miss a pigeon?

                Guns don't kill people, bullets kill people.

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                • #9
                  More.......

                  In the British Army, they have WO1 (Warrant Officer 1), which is the modern
                  denotation of a CSM (Coy Sgt Maj), and WO2, which would be the RSM (Regimental Sgt Maj)

                  Also, if I' m not mistaken, there are different classes of Pte in the BA too, although
                  I don't think they wear different badges of rank.

                  I have to say that the Irish system is straight-forward enough.

                  GOC, not quite sure where you are coming from with your coment:
                  "In the PDF they have plenty of NCO's to help the C/S but not in the Reserves"


                  The C/S has 4-5 or so Sgts under his baton, who each in turn would have 4 or so
                  Cpls under theirs. Well, theoretically that's the case...

                  Nick's bang on with:

                  "Not entirely accurate. If memory serves, an Irish recruit becomes a 2-star once he finishes basic training, then gains his/her third upon finishing infantry training. Then as 3-stars, they go to their Corps courses. All on-line privates are 3-stars"
                  "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

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                  • #10
                    Well.. sortof. The US system is rather ludicrously layered.

                    Strummer's list is accurate, but not entirely complete.

                    You have to distinguish between grade and rank. A rank must be a particular grade, but having the grade does not necessarily mean you have rank. Pay is determined by looking at a table crossing grade, with time in service. This table is the same across all the services. Here's a more complete list, including jobs.

                    Grade Rank Addressed As. Insignia
                    E-1. PV1. (Private) None
                    E-2. PV2. (Private) One stripe
                    E-3. PFC. (Private, First Class)One stripe, one rocker
                    E-4. SPC. (Specialist) Shield w/ eagle.

                    None of these ranks have any authority by rank over any of the others, though some may have seniority or authority by position (Rare) All positions are interchangable. (Rifleman, grenadier, gunner in infantry, loader/driver in tanks)

                    E-4. CPL (Corporal). Two stripes.
                    Rare, depending on unit. Not often seen in combat arms units, but more common in rear echelons. Has authority of rank over E-1-E-4(SPC)

                    E-5 SGT (Sergeant) Three stripes. Usually team leaders in infantry, gunners in tanks.

                    E-6 SSG (Staff Sergeant) Three stripes, one rocker. Usually squad (UK/IRL Section) leaders in infantry, tank commanders in tanks.

                    E-7 SFC (Sergeant, First Class). Three stripes, two rockers. Platoon sergeant.

                    E-8 MSG (Master Sergeant).Three stripes, three rockers. No fixed position in the unit, usually he's a subject matter expert. Frequently assigned autonomous jobs as they come up.

                    E-8 1ST (1st Sergeant). Three stripes, three rockers, and a diamond. The senior sergeant in a company, equivalent to Company Sergeant/Squadron sergeant. Responsible more for logistics and personnel than the actual meat of the company's job itself.

                    E-9 SGM (Sergeant Major). Three stripes, three rockers, and a star. Frankly, I've never met one. Battalion level chap, I presume.

                    E-9 CSM (Command Sergeant Major). Three stripes, three rockers, a star and laurels. Senior enlisted man in a unit of battalion level or higher.

                    E-9 SMA (Sergeant Major of the Army). Three stripes, three rockers, two stars and an eagle. The senior enlisted man in the army, works in the Pentagon.

                    WO-1 WO-1 Warrant Officer 1. Silver bar, one black square. All WOs are, as mentioned earlier, 'subject matter experts' requiring an officer's position of authority. Also all pilots are WOs or better. Warrant Officer School is about as bad as OCS.

                    WO-2 CW-2 Chief Warrant Officer 2.
                    WO-3 CW-3
                    WO-4 CW-4 A similar group.. all have a silver bar with the appropriate numbers of black 1squares. When enlisted, I would salute these people and call them 'sir'. 'Mister' is also correct.
                    WO-5 CW-5 Chief Warrant Officer 5. Silver bar, with four outlined black squares. Respect this man! He's -damned- good at what he does. I've only met one, he was in personnel.

                    O-1. 2LT. 2nd Lieutenant. Gold Bar. Platoon Leader
                    O-1E 2LT 2nd Lieutenant. Gold Bar, Platoon leader. Has at least 4 years enlisted experience under his belt before being comissioned.
                    O-2 1LT 1st Lieutenant. Silver Bar. XO, assistant staff officer.
                    O-3 CPT Captain. Two silver bars. Company Commander, Staff officer
                    O-4 MAJ Major Gold oak leaf. Battalion XO, Senior staff officer.
                    O-5 LTC Lieutenant Colonel. Silver oak leaf. Battalion CO
                    O-6 COL Colonel Silver Eagle. Brigade/Regiment CO
                    O-7+ General One Star+... Add stars as appropriate to rank.

                    And that's just the Army. Marines have a slightly less confusing state of affairs, Zoomies have stripes going up the length of their arm, and I'm still not quite sure where I am with the seafaring types...

                    NTM
                    Driver, tracks, troops.... Drive and adjust!!

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                    • #11
                      One Star Privates

                      Yes, I remember sewing on my one-star badges very proudly in the FCA in the late 50s and then later training PDF recruits who qualified as one-stars after 12 weeks (I think) and going on to complete their 2 star training to pass out.

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                      • #12
                        Warrent Officer Class 1 RSM/ASM/GSM, they hold a first class warrent for the Queens commission- lion and unicorn badge worn on right fore arm-. Warrent Officer Class 2 CSM/CQMS/RQMS/QMSI/SSM/BSM they hold a second class warrent for the Queens commission-crown with or without laurel wreath worn on the right fore arm.

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                        • #13
                          GOC132 said
                          "I reckon the Irish should have an extra NCO rank between QMS and Sgt ,like a troop Sgt with lets say a Harp/Shamrock over the three Stripes. In the PDF they have plenty of NCO's to help the C/S but not in the Reserves."

                          Why?, what role would that NCO perform? Each section has a section commander and 2ic, each platoon has a Sgt. In Coy HQ's there are postings for NCO's to help in both the Q and A role. Whether or not your unit chooses to fill those positions with effective people is their problem. The rank structure that exists is pretty good.

                          Cat Tank said
                          "E-4. CPL (Corporal). Two stripes.
                          Rare, depending on unit. Not often seen in combat arms units, but more common in rear echelons. Has authority of rank over E-1-E-4(SPC)"

                          That explains the fact that there appears to be a lot more Sgts in the US.

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                          • #14
                            Well obviously, seen as a Section 2i/c or even a group leader is a Sgt in the US army! A section Commander is a Staff Sgt!!

                            Friends Come and Go, but Enemies accumulate!!

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                            • #15
                              It seems everyone is getting hung up on titles and ranks. Just because someone has the title/rank of Sgt in one army doesn't make him a better or more capable soldier and leader than a Corporal in another force., and vice versa.

                              These are just titles and have more to do with traditions and procedures implemented by someone far removed from the 'bread and butter' of a unit.

                              Consider that a PV2 in the US Army is the same as a PFC in the US Marine Corps. An Army PFC is a Lance Corp in the Marines. A Sgt in the Army and Marines is a Staff Sgt in the US Air Force. An Army Sgt First Class is a Master Sgt in the Air Force. An Air Force First Sgt is an Army Sgt Major. A Navy Lietenent is an Army Captain!!!! Confused yet!!!!!!???????

                              Because of all these different rank structures and titles, in the US everyone has a grade which corresponds to the rank. These grades are the same across all branches, even though the title may be different. For enlisted they are the "E" numbers, Warrants are "W" numbers and Officers are "O" numbers.

                              So an E-3 would be:
                              Navy - Seaman
                              Marines - Lance Corp
                              Army - Private First Class
                              Air Force - Airman First Class

                              You will hear service men refer to people by their grade, not their rank, just for clarity, although this practice is officially discouraged.

                              I'll do some research and see why the Corporal rank is being illiminated.

                              Later.
                              No-one, I think, is in my tree...

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