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  • #46
    First....we don't need to do anything the way the French do it. If we did we would have surrendered and pulled out of Lebanon back in the 80's.

    Second....We already have specialized ranks and payscales for technical people. In the aircorps there are air traffic controllers who are all of the C.S. rank or better. The ordnance corps is also a good example of a place where a few privates are kept around for show but most of the company are either officers or senior NCO's. In the other corps units the privates are paid a higher rate based on their technical grade but they don't get a rank because they must still take orders from non-technical NCO's. A good example of this would be in CIS where almost everybody is on some kind of tech pay but they still have to obey infantry NCO's when working with them.

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    • #47
      I also like our rank structure because our privates wear 2 or 3 stars making them the equivalent of American Generals and the head of the U.S.M.C is the Commandant of the Marine Corps. I won't even get into the discussion of the "green berets"

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      • #48
        Has nobody ever heard the saying,
        "Too many chefs, not enough indians"
        If your not in bed by 4 o' clock it's time to go home!

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        • #49
          hehe...we seem to do pretty ok as it is...

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          • #50
            The whole army is in camoflauge and if they dont introduce the Sub Dued Flashes then we will all loose our Sub Unit identity.
            I hope the spelling is right:flagwave:

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            • #51
              I really doubt if any one actually read my initial message, there is so much time and effort taken up here worrying about sub dued flashes and rank markings etc, lets worry about the big stuff, my initial posting was trying to inform fellow members of the Defnce Forces about a problem we are having and are going to keep having, namely the rank structure is in need of a rethink, I doubt seriously that many Commandts are actually on line reading this, so lets worry about our enlisted problems, here we go again
              If you serve with a multi national force ( the way we are going to be doing from now on) you coudl be a Sgt which is a NATO grade OR5( other rank 5) you could have 10 overseas trips, 20 years experience, trained 10 platoons BUT you are still the same rank as the 22 year old spotty American OR 5, he did his Sgt's course online where you did yours in the DFTC /BTC's , all he has to do is serve time in the rank and lo and be hold next time you meet the Yank he is an OR 6 and you are now his subordinate,in fact when the majority of foreign armies see the age of our mid rank and senior NCO's they assume that either we are lacking in something or we have been discplined and lost rank
              for our comrades in the reserve , this is a phenomena they wont have encountered YET
              for us, think of all the young Sgt Majors in Naquora, Butmir, Ilidza and the likes
              now that feels good to get that off my chest
              Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
              Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
              The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
              The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
              The best lack all conviction, while the worst
              Are full of passionate intensity.

              Comment


              • #52
                Rereading my rant I owe GOC132 an apology, i didnt mean to belittle him or his wishes for sub dued flashes
                sorry GOC
                Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
                Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
                The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
                The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
                The best lack all conviction, while the worst
                Are full of passionate intensity.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Just to allay your fears there Hedgehog,Irish NCO's are at the moment working in Force Hq's & have done in the past without receiving any deriding remarks from fellow Officers or NCO's in other Services.If anything the Irish soldier is held in great esteem because of his professionalism.If anybody is going to be derided it is the spotty faced (for example ) U.S. W.O. because of the appointment he has been tasked,e.g. Chief bottle washer!!In short the Irish enlisted man doesn't fall short because of the rank structure, in fact he is highly thought of because he is more than capable of performing tasks well above his appointment.Incidentally a lot of the appointments available to Irish troops at the moment are well sought after but they go to us!!!!!!!!!
                  Live long and prosper!

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Jesus Christ!!!!!! Get over yourselves lads.....I've never read so much insecure bullshit in my life.

                    Different armies have different rank structures and promotion systems. This is the only place I've ever come across anyone getting bothered over it.

                    A lot of posters seem to be very bothered by "22 year old US Sgts", or French Army Commandants etc. Get over yourselves. Worry about some CIE Bus Conductor who is a FCA Sgt!!!!!! Is a PDF corporal, who may have earned his stripes under fire overseas subordinate to an FCA Sgt?

                    This is not a slur against CIE bus conductors BTW. Just a wake up call to worry about what affects your own service in your own units. Shoot at the 25 meter targets first, worry about the 300m later.

                    Hedgehog, dunno where you think you can take a Sgt's class online? A US Army Sgt (E-5, BTW, not OR5) goes through what's called PLDC, not an easy class, but no harder than any other similar NCO course. And like all military courses throughout the Western World, it does suffer from "varying" standards depending on the "required" quotas, for females, racial groups etc. Making Staff Sgt requires BNOC, plus time in grade, plus promotion board, plus PT scores, Marksmanship scores etc. Not an automatic promotion at all. Remeber too, Hedgehog, that most of these other armies are vastly bigger than the IDF and hence have a much higher turnover among the NCO ranks, creating more vacancies for younger guys to move up into. In Ireland in general, and not just in the PDF/RDF, when a guy lands in a "nice number" nothing short of a few sticks of dynamite is gonna get him out of there!!

                    Later.
                    Last edited by strummer; 11 August 2003, 05:04.
                    No-one, I think, is in my tree...

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                    • #55
                      Tell me Erwin have you ever been in a turkish prison:D
                      "It is a general popular error to imagine that loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for it's welfare" Edmund Burke

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                      • #56
                        well true the US and others have a higher turnover-my dad went through most of his 22 years a corporal from transport through intel and on into IT and it didn't really phase him as younger soldiers of higher rank usually have the clout to know the older guys who are their subordinates probably know a few things more than they do on how to survive (both in the field and in the army itself, natch ) and those that turn their noses up usually wind up following yellowjackets advice on mine procedure or similar out on UN missions...

                        And as for the US NCO's course being one of the hardest in the world, I wonder if you'd care to come on an exchange programme here to see for yourself (noting of course that they've had to tone it down in the last couple of years due to fatalities I beleave...)...

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                        • #57
                          Thanks men for the instant replies, Erwin you seem sensible enough, I was that Soldier in a multi national force HQ's ( a few different missions, ) I was by rank subordinate to an American Female Master Seargent who in the US was a Dental Hygenist, she was spotty and 22 and with the grace and manner of the OLD style nurse in Bricins, I also was under the command of a 26 year old Romanian Sgt Major, on a different mission, he was worse than Miss Spotty, at that stage I was 38 and 18 years service, I did a good job, as did most of us Irish, not because of our rank but because we are profffesional, these problems were broached with our SIO and DFHQ, but as i originally said , it doesnt affect Officers
                          Strummer thanks for reading it, now if you read it again and read it properly I will be even more thankful, I said that a Sgt is an OR 5 and this is a NATO grade, thanks for your patronising attitude to me and the PDF/RDF and even CIE bus conductors whom I think are an extinct breed. Please analyise before taking action
                          I have worked and played with many different Armies and I dont know your background or your experiences but to compare an American NCO promotional system with ours is not by any means a valid argument,or doing us any favours. Saying all that I thouroughly agree with you last statement regarding cushy numbers
                          GLITC
                          Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
                          Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
                          The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
                          The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
                          The best lack all conviction, while the worst
                          Are full of passionate intensity.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            To get around the differences in the level of responsibilities that Irish NCO's have when compared with NATO NCO's, all Senior NCO's (CQMS & CS) are given an E9 rating when working at Force HQ in Kosovo

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                            • #59
                              The thing about the IDF is that we're too small to be promoting everyone at the rate of other armies and also our average soldiers age is higher than in other armies as well-therefore our lower ranked soldiers generally have more experience and would have a higher rank in a larger army-unfortunatly this is not taken into account when working with other armies and can lead to problems. However the professionalism of Irish soldiers can make up for this-for instance when the French troops got surrounded by Hezbullah and others it was the Irish troops who got sent in to break the blockade while others went and hid in their bunkers...we can take satisfaction out of the fact that we're more professional and so when Irish troops enter into combat they're more likely to survive while spotty 22 yr old goes home either dead or broken as a combat soldier.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Herr Klutz

                                And as for the US NCO's course being one of the hardest in the world, I wonder if you'd care to come on an exchange programme here to see for yourself (noting of course that they've had to tone it down in the last couple of years due to fatalities I beleave...)...
                                Actually what I said was that the PLDC, the US Army Sgt's course, isn't harder or easier than any other similar NCO's course. Dunno where you got the "hardest in the world" thing from.

                                Hedgehog:
                                If you read my posts on this subject you will see that I am saying that different promotion systems in different armies cannot be compared. My point was that people should not get hung up on titles/grades/ranks etc.

                                I also pointed out that there seemed to be no bother among posters having a PDF Corp, being subordinate to a RDF Sgt. This was my bus conductor comparison, and I think you are correct, bus conductors are an obsolete lot!!!

                                BTW, I'd be interested to know how a 22 year old can make MSG. Did the spots count for promotion points or something? Or was it just a facetious example? Was dental hygenist her civilian job or Army MOS?
                                No-one, I think, is in my tree...

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