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My grand-father and the mysterious AFC

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  • My grand-father and the mysterious AFC

    Hello,

    I am investigating my family history and have become interested in finding traces of my grand-father - Andrew Moore - a Sergeant Major in the [Royal] Army Service Corps and later [possibly very briefly] a Lieutenant in something called the "AFC". What was that?

    He originated from North county Dublin, but I found him in Waterford in 1919.

    So far no pension records and no medals found on the index.

    But any assistance in finding out anything about his military career greatly appreciated

    Fras54
    4
    A British Army service?
    25.00%
    1
    An Irish Army service?
    0.00%
    0
    An irregular designation?
    50.00%
    2
    Anything else?
    25.00%
    1

    The poll is expired.


  • #2
    Possibly the Royal Flying Corps which probably also went by the name Army Flying Corps to separate the identity from the Royal Navy Air Sevice. http://www.airwar1.org.uk/

    Alternatively the Army Flying Club.
    Last edited by Victor; 31 March 2010, 00:08.
    Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. Margaret Mead

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    • #3
      Australian Flying Corps?

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Australian_Air_Force

      Or a holder of the Air Force Cross

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_For...United_Kingdom)
      sigpic
      Say NO to violence against Women

      Originally posted by hedgehog
      My favourite moment was when the
      Originally posted by hedgehog
      red headed old dear got a smack on her ginger head

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Fras54 View Post
        Hello,


        So far no pension records and no medals found on the index.
        When you say ' Index ' I presume you are talking about the information you have obtained from the National Archives at Kew?

        Do you have a service number.

        Comment


        • #5
          Yes I have been wading through the National Archive at Kew [20k plus thrown up by Moore search], but a service number is the one of the many items of information I do not have.


          Yep. I thought that at first, but it seems such an impossible transition: farmer's son, Dublin county in 1911 to Sergeant Major in ASC in 1919 to Lieutenant in AFC in the same year to shop keeper in Waterford by the end.


          Seems such an incredible change from farmer to Australian flying corps, don't you think?

          Could it be a Gaelic acronym? He got out of British uniform pretty sharpish in 1919.
          Last edited by Vickers; 31 March 2010, 22:04.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Fras54 View Post
            Y


            Yep. I thought that at first, but it seems such an impossible transition: farmer's son, Dublin county in 1911 to Sergeant Major in ASC in 1919 to Lieutenant in AFC in the same year to shop keeper in Waterford by the end.


            Seems such an incredible change from farmer to Australian flying corps, don't you think?

            Could it be a Gaelic acronym? He got out of British uniform pretty sharpish in 1919.
            Hallo Fras54,

            just an observation, is there any chance he went from:

            a Sergeant Major in the A.S.C.

            to

            a Lieutenant in the A.S.C.

            and not the A.F.C.

            my reasoning for this would be:-

            1. that many records details were done by hand,
            even on many British Medal Index cards, mis-information from mistakenly reading
            the original handwritten info occurs frequently.

            2. A jump from S/Major to Lieutenant would not be that rare at this time in the same Unit.

            3. Lieutenants in Flying Units were usually people who had taken flight training, many with pre-war civil aero clubs, and again there were converts to officers from other-ranks who met the criteria, due to shortages caused by the war.

            As a S/Major even in the A.S.C. I would be surprised that there is not some reference to just the name.

            Mass discharges were the norm in 1919 many non-essential, last in - last promoted were the first to be taken out of the military in the immediate post WW1 reduction of British Forces.

            Also try THE GREAT WAR FORUM

            http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?

            its an invaluable website with regards the B.A. during WW1 and the people there are very helpful.

            Connaught Stranger.
            Last edited by Connaught Stranger; 1 April 2010, 11:15.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Fras54 View Post
              Yes I have been wading through the National Archive at Kew [20k plus thrown up by Moore search], but a service number is the one of the many items of information I do not have.


              Yep. I thought that at first, but it seems such an impossible transition: farmer's son, Dublin county in 1911 to Sergeant Major in ASC in 1919 to Lieutenant in AFC in the same year to shop keeper in Waterford by the end.


              Seems such an incredible change from farmer to Australian flying corps, don't you think?

              Could it be a Gaelic acronym? He got out of British uniform pretty sharpish in 1919.
              First thing is this. If he served in WW1 his medal card should have survived. I'm told that they are complete.

              Second, are you talking about the same Andrew Moore? It isn't the most uncommon of Irish names. What have you got to link the Dublin lad with the Waterford lad. And what is the source of the AFC abbreviation?
              sigpic
              Say NO to violence against Women

              Originally posted by hedgehog
              My favourite moment was when the
              Originally posted by hedgehog
              red headed old dear got a smack on her ginger head

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Groundhog View Post
                First thing is this. If he served in WW1 his medal card should have survived. I'm told that they are complete.

                Second, are you talking about the same Andrew Moore? It isn't the most uncommon of Irish names. What have you got to link the Dublin lad with the Waterford lad. And what is the source of the AFC abbreviation?
                Hi Groundhog,

                For your info, in fact quite a few hundred British Medal Index cards were destroyed in a fire a number of years ago another few thousand suffered varing degrees of fire damage.

                Connaught Stranger.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Connaught Stranger View Post
                  Hi Groundhog,

                  For your info, in fact quite a few hundred British Medal Index cards were destroyed in a fire a number of years ago another few thousand suffered varing degrees of fire damage.

                  Connaught Stranger.
                  Yeah? Do you have a source for this information.
                  sigpic
                  Say NO to violence against Women

                  Originally posted by hedgehog
                  My favourite moment was when the
                  Originally posted by hedgehog
                  red headed old dear got a smack on her ginger head

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Groundhog View Post
                    Yeah? Do you have a source for this information.
                    It mentioned quite alot on the Great War Forum.

                    Records destroyed in the Blitz, Complete list from NA:-

                    NA document WO/32/21769 via DocumentsOnline lists the following:-

                    Records Destroyed at Arnside Street
                    AMD 4 Card Index Nurses
                    Confidential Reports (Nurses) Army Records Centre
                    Arnside Street
                    Southwark, London SE 1
                    Rejects (Nurses) from 1934
                    All TANS Records
                    AMD 5 VD Cards
                    6 volumes of extracts from CRs (RAMC officers 1825 to 1857)
                    Complete medical history of the war – card index to same
                    Almeric Paget’s records
                    Various records of the QAIMNS
                    AG 4 (Medals) BMs – Bundles 1 to 93
                    (Corridor) BM Bundles
                    Medal receipts
                    Medal Rolls of the Kings West African Rifles
                    C 1 Chaplains records
                    Confidential reports
                    Colonel Whitton’s reports
                    CDRD Chemical warfare files
                    C 4 Records of Civil Subordinates and card index
                    F 2 Agents Officer Pay Lists 1914 to 1921 and later
                    F 2d Schedules and Vouchers
                    F 3 Letter books from 1885
                    F 7 War Office Cashier’s Accounts
                    China and Malaya Accounts from July 1934
                    Malta and Gibraltar Accounts
                    F 8 Principal Personal ledgers
                    Contract ledger sheets
                    General states
                    Remittances and vouchers
                    PMA accounts
                    Post Office Savings Accounts
                    APL ledger cards
                    PPL ledger cards
                    O and F ledger cards
                    ID Various old books
                    Lands Branch Maps various
                    MI (one) Card index of staff employed (military)
                    All intelligence records including various missions; Russia, Austria, Germany, Switzerland, Black Sea, Italy, Portugal, Persia, Egypt
                    MS 2 Officers Commission cards
                    Confidential reports (officers) all branches of the service, 1870 to 1880; 1910 to 1938. 30 CRs of 1939 RAMC
                    MS 3 Honours and Awards Card Index (Old and New)
                    Honour and Award bundles giving a description of the deed which earned the award
                    Rolls of the VC’s awarded from the commencement
                    South African awards
                    MGOF(cool.gif Accounts
                    QMG 3 Blue prints and drawings (1914 to 1919 period)
                    QMG 12 Stationary (9 tons)
                    SD 1 Confidential documents dealing with officers examinations
                    M1D Files (Munitions inventaions) 1 – 5000
                    WO Library Volumes of leading London papers dating back over 100 years
                    C4 Tels Secret Cipher Telegrams
                    A Section BMs from 1926 and reference books and Letter Books
                    Clerical BMs and Letter Books
                    K & E Sections BMs and Letter Books
                    AG4 Medals Bronze Plaques and King’s Certificates unclaimed
                    C1 General Vennings Reports`
                    CIGS Documents
                    DAAG CR Files
                    Q Files
                    C2 Casualty returns
                    JAG Court Martial proceedings

                    Sundry AFB 199As Officers record of service
                    ADB 158 Officers strength returns
                    Volumes of officer strength returns from 1880
                    Various registers of Civil Subordinates all branches of the service with complete card index
                    AB 404 Civil Subordinates loose leaf ledgers (AfsC 334)
                    Roll books of various ordnance factories
                    Card index of Foreign Honours and Awards
                    Books containing rolls of Officers RAMC
                    Numerous Boer War records, including Town Guard, ie.. Kitchener’s Horse, etc.
                    Amy Lists from 1775, also Indian Army lists
                    Several volumes of Court Martial proceedings
                    Records of Horse Breeding
                    Medway Coast Defence records
                    Packages of photographic plates (Great War period)
                    Irish Rebellion. Files and card index
                    Irish Coastal Command (Registered Files)
                    General Redcliffe’s documents relating to Italy
                    Nominal Rolls of the Black Sea Labour Corps
                    Embarkation returns
                    Colonial regiments – Nominal Rolls
                    Officer’s and Men’s Casualty Cards
                    South African Casualty Card index
                    GHQ France files
                    AFSB 199 TA Officers
                    AFSB 103 Officers
                    2 tin boxes containing documents relating to 1st Echelon France 1939/40
                    Part II Orders and Card Index Officers and Men 2nd Echelon NWEF
                    Routine Orders of the various Commands 1940
                    RA Reference Books of officers served home and abroad including card index
                    Card Index of officers serving in the Middle East
                    Officer Unit and demobilisation Card Index
                    First commission cards
                    Card index of deceased officers
                    Card index of TA and temporary commissions
                    Staff card index
                    Officers promotion and Exam Card index
                    Card Index of Officers and men taken P of W
                    Card index of prison camps in Germany
                    Documents relating to conditions under which our troops were interned in P of W Camps
                    War Diaries of nearly all regiments (Great War)
                    Duplicate Great War Diaries
                    Grey books of officers and men killed and missing 1914/18
                    Nominal rolls of pre-war volunteers
                    Reference books of pre-war officers volunteers
                    Reference books of TA officers pre-war
                    Nominal rolls of the OTC and card index
                    USA RAMC records
                    SA RAMC records
                    Chinese Labour Corps records
                    Mob Directorate
                    Documents relating to Harrow Schools
                    Documents relating to Portugese Labour Corps
                    Documents relating to Russian Labour Corps
                    1 case of effects
                    Vote 10C Accounts ( F 7)
                    Great War volunteer records
                    1 parcel of photographs of old guns used by the RA
                    Documents relating to the Egyptian Expeditionary Force
                    3040 Card Index (particulars of soldier service)
                    ABs 358 all like regiments
                    ABs 216 TA
                    ABs 359 Special Reserve and index books
                    ABs 72 Lists of soldiers documents forwarded to Chealsea
                    Part II Orders all branches of the service 1914 to 1921
                    2 South African Rifles and 1 sword
                    Reference books of the various ammunition columns
                    Company Rolls of the Labour Corps
                    WACC documents and card index (3040’s)
                    Various records of the QAIMNS
                    Reports on German atrocities
                    Approximately 50 files of 26/records/series
                    Various records of the Royal Air Force
                    GHQ files
                    Numerous copies of the London Gazette
                    Zion Mule Corps
                    Various records of the Kings West African Rifles
                    BW1 Records
                    WIR records – pre-war
                    Card index of the various divisions, bridges, etc.
                    Army orders
                    Cinque Ports
                    Allied Police Commission, Constantinople
                    Reference books of the Young Soldiers Battalions Great War
                    Various records not scheduled (MT 4)
                    All reference books dealing with the work at Arnside Street including a complete summary of the documents held
                    4 books of Kings Regulations (Key copies0 1912 0 1923 from Marshelsea Road
                    Documents relating to the Camel Corps
                    Reference books of Widows Pensions
                    The following documents were waiting to be transferred to the Pubic Records Office at their convenience
                    Documents relating to the conquest of Florida and Louisiana
                    Map of Gibraltar about 1770
                    Correspondence relating to the relief of Makeking
                    Correspondence between Lord Kitchener and the Archbishop of Canterbury re the appointment of Roman Catholic Priests
                    Diary. Journal of Egypt 1800
                    Correspondence relating to the West Indian Regiment 1790
                    PWIB BM Bundles
                    Sundry Approximately 2 tons of oddments including parts of two Machine Guns, barbed wire, periscopes and a Range Finder from Great War
                    Card Index of the Military Hospitals
                    Card index relating to the BOAR
                    Regimental Histories from various Records Offices including one volume of the Prince of Wales
                    All these volumes were received under Mob 32
                    Royal Hibernian Military School. Documents and Registers
                    Great War Soldiers documents received from Record Offices.
                    Great War Soldiers non-effective documents up to 7th August 2910 inclusive
                    Soldiers documents of M G Corps up to disbandment 1922.
                    (Out of 6.5 million documents only 1.25 million have been saved)
                    Documents relating to War Department Constabulary
                    This comment was posted on THE GREAT WAR FORUM in connection to the question:-

                    Are the MIC's believed to be "complete"?
                    on:-April 26th 2009.

                    Most are on the NA site {but there are some missing either from damage or "weeding" in the past}, the horrendous news is that some of the originals were recently damaged by Rats/Mice whilst in the care of the WFA!!!!!
                    Connaught Stranger.
                    Last edited by Connaught Stranger; 1 April 2010, 15:56.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Strange. The National Archives gives the impression that the Medal Index Cards are complete.

                      The collection currently contains approximately 4.8 million people, which is nearly all of the total collection. There will be one more update to this collection in the very near future that will complete this database.

                      http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=1262
                      Last edited by Groundhog; 1 April 2010, 16:14.
                      sigpic
                      Say NO to violence against Women

                      Originally posted by hedgehog
                      My favourite moment was when the
                      Originally posted by hedgehog
                      red headed old dear got a smack on her ginger head

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        If commissioned, try the London gazette, the details of the commission should be there, with an army number.

                        http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/search
                        'He died who loved to live,' they'll say,
                        'Unselfishly so we might have today!'
                        Like hell! He fought because he had to fight;
                        He died that's all. It was his unlucky night.
                        http://www.salamanderoasis.org/poems...nnis/luck.html

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                        • #13
                          Well Groundhog,

                          There's family memory for a start and the 1911 Census for seconds, then there's newspapers in Waterford and the Marriage Certificate. It's definitely him.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Groundhog View Post
                            Strange. The National Archives gives the impression that the Medal Index Cards are complete.
                            http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=1262
                            I asked on the Great War Forum with regards the completeness of the Service Files at Ancestry and got the following response:-

                            I think it means 'what was left' after the many weeding outs of papers that took place plus the war damage. Complete set of what remains not what was there originally.
                            Patrick O'Dwyer.
                            And

                            Agreed. I have read somewhere not that long ago that the length of the records prior to the WW2 losses would have stretched for fifteen miles if placed upright in a line together on shelves. Sadly no more.

                            Peridot
                            AndMay not have been written in the best way, but I suppose they are correct. All the service records for other ranks that survived the blitz and who did not serve in the next war are on there now.

                            I would be interested to know how many signed up again for WW2, as their records from WW1 are still around.

                            Cheers Andy.
                            and

                            Some time ago, a member (apologies for not giving direct credit but I can't recall who) on this forum posted a link to the NA inventory which I printed off and transcribed here

                            http://yourarchives.nationalarchives...September_1940

                            You have to scroll to the bottom to see how many service records were lost. I've been told that what makes up the rest of the surviving service records came from other govt departments which is why there are 30-40% now available.


                            It is also the other documents lost e.g. "Complete medical history of the War – card index to same" that makes you appreciate how much was lost.


                            Speaking personally, being forced to look outside a service record and use other records such as the Census etc builds up a far better picture of the man (but access to the rest would have been good)


                            Glen
                            Connaught Stranger.
                            Last edited by Connaught Stranger; 2 April 2010, 07:38.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Fras54 View Post
                              Well Groundhog,

                              There's family memory for a start and the 1911 Census for seconds, then there's newspapers in Waterford and the Marriage Certificate. It's definitely him.
                              OK. What's the source for the Lieutenant in the AFC?

                              Originally posted by Connaught Stranger View Post
                              I asked on the Great War Forum with regards the completeness of the Service Files at Ancestry and got the following response
                              The service records are separate from the Medal Index Cards. It's quite easy to find an Index Card, not so easy to find a service record.
                              sigpic
                              Say NO to violence against Women

                              Originally posted by hedgehog
                              My favourite moment was when the
                              Originally posted by hedgehog
                              red headed old dear got a smack on her ginger head

                              Comment

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