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  • na grohmiti
    replied
    I guess the same could be said for Russian Cope Cages?
    Great vid sir. Impressed also your OGs still fit after all these years. Mine seem to have "shrunk" dramatically in the intervening decades.

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  • California Tanker
    replied
    Before I set it live, you guys think this is a reasonable video?

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  • California Tanker
    replied
    Thank you, Sir. I have appended this information to the video.

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  • na grohmiti
    replied
    So this is what Rose Doyle's book has to say about the incident represented. (There is no mention of the use of Sniper rifles anywhere of any type).
    Comdt Quinlan says of 13th September:

    "Several white civilians were seen moving about, openly.
    Perhaps because of the apparent casualness of their movements we did not realise they were taking an active part in the operation. We took them for bold men who who wanted to have a grandstand view of the battle. One man in a white shirt who was very conspicuous became somewhat too bold. He was clearly seen signalling with his hand in a wise sweep as if directing the advance of infantry. He was cut down with a burst of machine gun fire"


    and also referring to another group 1100 Yards away.

    "They had a good observation on our position but because of the residential, built up area around the school, we used great restraint in not firing for a long time. They probably felt outside our range and quite safe. I was forced to take action after some time. The concentrated fire of two Bren Guns, one armoured car and one mortar cleared the area in quick time.
    It also ended open movement by white civilians. They donned their camouflage uniforms thereafter.
    Three of this group had moved forward and at 800 yards were cut down by a light automatic [ie a Bren gun] from Purfina Garage. This brought retaliatory M6 fire on the garage as our fire had been observed."

    Later on when summarising the events of the 15th September, and the assault from the air by the Fouga, and A coy's response:
    "Quinlan, like the rest of A Company, was lavish in his praise of the Bren gun's value to the company:
    It was an excellent weapon, it's fire devastating at a range of up to 1000 yards. "

    It appears the weaponry in most use (or of most importance) were the Vickers mounted in the 2 Ford armoured Cars, on ground tripods, and the Jeep mounted Bren Machine guns. Apparently mounted on the Dash, operated by the passenger, rather than Pintle mounted in the rear, though other sources suggest Vickers were mounted on Jeeps in Irish service too. The story of Armed Jeeps in the congo is a whole other rabbit hole, unfortunately.
    image.png

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  • na grohmiti
    replied
    Can you ask him about the 3 stars on "Quinlan's" shoulder??

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  • California Tanker
    replied
    So Ian just received an email from Dan Hirst, military advisor to the movie, which he forwarded to me. According to him, the Bren scene was thought up by the movie's Armourer, who had seen service in Rhodesia. Said armorer is now deceased, so there is no way of knowing if it was something that the Rhodesian military might have tried, or if they were just being creative. I'm still not convinced that a Bren might not have been used for a long distance shot in Irish service, mind, just given the reputation.
    Last edited by California Tanker; 16 September 2023, 06:22.

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  • madmark
    replied
    last bren shoot as far as im aware was in june 2009 by 31 cav Sqn just before the brens were taken from stores

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  • California Tanker
    replied
    Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Cav and Artillery got rid of the Bren long before Infantry. My pots in 2000 had GPMGs, and we handed them to the gunners and troopers on the course to look after. I left infantry in 2007, when I came back in 2008, Bren's were gone from Stores.
    As for scoped 303 No 4, there definitely was, at some point, until the FAL became the sniper rifle, and Later the AI92. Whether it was in use as a marksman's rifle at the time is unclear, as the DF was in transition at the time, the first units heading out armed with 303s, and FALs following them out.
    I'll have to read Rose Doyle's book again to see if it throws any further light. Michael Whelan's is light on detail in that regard.
    Let me know if you can. I am off to Fort Bliss on Sunday, would like to record this before I leave.

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  • na grohmiti
    replied
    Cav and Artillery got rid of the Bren long before Infantry. My pots in 2000 had GPMGs, and we handed them to the gunners and troopers on the course to look after. I left infantry in 2007, when I came back in 2008, Bren's were gone from Stores.
    As for scoped 303 No 4, there definitely was, at some point, until the FAL became the sniper rifle, and Later the AI92. Whether it was in use as a marksman's rifle at the time is unclear, as the DF was in transition at the time, the first units heading out armed with 303s, and FALs following them out.
    I'll have to read Rose Doyle's book again to see if it throws any further light. Michael Whelan's is light on detail in that regard.

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  • California Tanker
    replied
    Originally posted by DeV View Post
    California Tanker very much doubt you were one of last people trained on the Bren, I was still instructing 2*’s on it (at least) around 2007

    I also don’t think (open to correction) there was any Irish scoped Lee Enfields, I think it is reference to one of the soldiers (I want to say a JNCO if I remember correctly) who held an All Army Marksman’s badge (ie won the rifle competition over open sights).
    Well, given how recruiting went in the 2000s, I still might make 'one of the last'. 11th cav got rid of the Bren in I think 1998. I did a couple of ranges, and that was it, never saw them again. Point taken, however.

    But you actually just answered my question I was about to pose on the scoped rifle. It seems to me that if, in reality, there was no such weapon there, then it seems to increase the possibility of a Bren actually having been used for the occasional precision long-range shot, which then increases the possibility of a veteran having mentioned it to the writers. Being interesting enough to merit putting into the movie, but thus being in conflict with the 'sniper' rifle which was added in the movie.
    Last edited by California Tanker; 15 September 2023, 20:53.

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  • DeV
    replied
    California Tanker very much doubt you were one of last people trained on the Bren, I was still instructing 2*’s on it (at least) around 2007

    I also don’t think (open to correction) there was any Irish scoped Lee Enfields, I think it is reference to one of the soldiers (I want to say a JNCO if I remember correctly) who held an All Army Marksman’s badge (ie won the rifle competition over open sights).

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  • California Tanker
    replied
    I think I am going to use it as a teaching point for a video I'm going to release about reality vs perception.
    I am perfectly willing to believe that someone might choose a heavy, bipod weapon for a certain shot in preference to a scoped, free-resting Lee Enfield, regardless of what the mechanical accuracy comparison of the two systems is simply because of what they believed would be the result. There are no two ways that by the time I got in (and the Bren was on the way out), the Bren's accuracy was taken as a matter of faith. Taking the magazine out, I agree, is silly and done for dramatic effect. But that someone decided to use a Bren for a difficult long-range shot, I think it likely that the writer got the idea from someone who was interviewed.​​
    Attached Files

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  • na grohmiti
    replied
    We never got a good explanation why the commandant wears 3 star private rank markings either....

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  • DeV
    replied
    Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post


    Any thoughts folks?
    I always found Bren Mk3 to be fairly accurate at 300 metres with the magazine fitted even in bursts and that was almost 40 years after Jadotville!

    not sure did they have Mk1 or Mk3 in Jadotville?

    he forgets of course that the Mk3 can fire single shots (with a bit of practice you can fire single shots when on automatic even) and that there was no need to remove the magazine either

    also anything I’ve read on Jadotville says nothing about snipers but does refer to one of the soldiers being an all-army marksman (very much not the same thing)

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  • na grohmiti
    replied


    Any thoughts folks?

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