Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

jadotVille

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • na grohmiti
    replied
    Originally posted by Archimedes View Post
    Jaded one-liners aside, I would think that a Colonel is considered a senior officer in most armies

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milita...enior_officers
    Fair enough. However the narrative that the action at Jadotville was part of the curriculum as the US army college emanated from people like this Colonel. WHich when put under scrutiny by the board looking into the non-awarding of medals, failed to produce anything other than the narrative he is parroting here.
    Is it now or was it ever part of the curriculum? NO
    Did students, without direction choose to present it as a post WW2 use of coy in defence? Yes, because there are few other examples outside the US military.

    Its a bit like if you ever visit the Library of Garda College, there are possibly thousands of thesis on Garda transport, garda vehicles, driver training, etc, all provided by student/probationer Gardai in training. Oddly it is also the one subject not covered in the Student Curriculum in the college, but students choose it as a topic they want to cover. Why? Because of the huge volume of source material to work from, now that all your predecessors have provided a map for you in their Thesis.
    I fear the same is the case in the US Army college.

    Leave a comment:


  • Archimedes
    replied
    Jaded one-liners aside, I would think that a Colonel is considered a senior officer in most armies

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milita...enior_officers

    Leave a comment:


  • na grohmiti
    replied
    Is a full bird Colonel considered a senior officer in the US Military?
    Because here they are just a Commandant who couldn't get a civvy job.

    Leave a comment:


  • 1798
    replied
    Posted an article in the news section. "Senior US officer criticises lack of medals for Irish soldiers who went 'above and beyond' at Jadotville"

    Couple of quotes from the article really brings home the achievement of those brave men.


    "A former senior officer who directed combat studies for the US military has said the Irish response at the 1961 Battle of Jadotville was frequently mentioned among American officers as one of the greatest examples of excellent defensive tactics.

    Col Edwards served at the Combat Studies section of the US Army Command & General Staff College at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas.
    He puts the Irish soldiers' exploits on a par with the British holding off the Zulus at Rourke's Drift.

    During his time at Fort Leavenworth, he said Jadotville was constantly brought up as an example of military defensive excellence, alongside Rourke's Drift (1879 and highlighted in the film Zulu) and Thermopylae (480 BC, when a small force of Spartans held off a vast Persian army for days).

    He said the defence by vastly outnumbered Irish UN soldiers against a massively superior force of local rebels backed by experienced mercenaries in the battle was essential reading for would-be future US military leaders.

    Col Edwards said on many occasions he asked his students to pick a great commander post World War Two and several chose Quinlan, “and I never had an Irishman in the class”.

    Cmdt Quinlan had to evolve his response as the situation developed. But, no matter what the event, when he arrived he showed his experience and used it.

    "That's what soldiers do to prepare for their first combat and he showed his initiative by fortifying a place that was left in terrible disrepair,” he added.

    Jadotville swept under the rug

    He said it is his conclusion that the UN and Irish hierarchies wanted to sweep the whole thing under the rug and hope it would go away.

    “Therefore, no individual valour awards, even though many years and many governments later UN service awards and even an Irish 'I was there when' medals were issued, not awarded.


    But, what about that historic and heralded Irish Gaelic warrior spirit? No valour awards for actual face-to-face and hand-to-hand fighting?”

    “Many of those individuals deserved awards for performance of duty above and beyond the call, for tactical and technical expertise. These are the people and the actions that I studied at West Point in 1971/72. It was brought to my attention each and every time we talked defence, a subject addressed at all levels, “ Col Edwards added.



    In my view if it had been the British Army or US Army at Jadotville then the soldiers and their commanders would have been covered in medals and promotions.



    Leave a comment:


  • na grohmiti
    replied
    Is anyone else fed up of senator ger sticking his oar in at every opportunity? His SAR crusade seems to have lost momentum, as his attempts to duel Chris Reynolds online have all fizzled when Chris proves him wrong time after time.
    Jadotville is his new crusade. Before the print was dry on the report, and long before anyone had a chance to read it in full, him and his allies started the namecalling and blame game.
    Its unseemly of a man in his position.
    He is being fed inaccurate information yet again from unknown sources, and when challenged, refuses to back down.
    He now has a document that is at odds with the main thrust of one aspect of the report. A man (Cpl)who was recommended for promotion as a result of the action. Promotion didn't happen, though man was later promoted anyway.
    Ger insists the man was recommended for DSM (which did not exist at the time) even though the report states the family had been informed, in error that the man had been recommended for an MMG.
    Why he hasn't shown this "smoking gun" to the media is a mystery, the answer to which only ger knows.
    Meanwhile the "south east military veterans" whoever they are, have joined the pile on, and also have the same document, and also have not gone to press with it.

    The awarding of medals is turning into a X-Factor like contest. The public do not get to decide who should and should not get military decorations for Gallantry or distinguished service.
    The Military is not a democracy.

    Leave a comment:


  • na grohmiti
    replied
    Originally posted by DeV View Post
    Tried to read a fair whack of the report and find it a bit had to follow considering most of it appears to be about 35 Inf Bn rather than specifically A Coy.

    The main problem the initial medal board had was there was only 1 medal they could consider awarding, the MMG. The bar being set very high by Tpr Browne’s 2nd class MMG for his actions at Niemba
    I'm not sure if it's in the recommendations, but maybe it is time for a revamp of the entire medal system. There is no way now to award a 1st class MMG unless you did better than holding off the enemy and dying in an attempt to save your comrades.
    By the same token the guy who crawls under gunfire to reach an injured comrade should be getting the same medal as a general who oversaw the implementation of a tricky admin exercise.
    The guy who stopped the ship from sinking should not be getting the same medal as a colonel who was the first to serve in a particular appointment overseas.
    When a unit does well, either give everyone in the unit a DSM, or give a unit citation. Don't give it to the OC only. When he gets transferred he'll be using the DSM others earnedl to climb the ladder further, and the action becomes a fading memory.
    Unit citations should be like a UN medal, worn by all in the unit while they still serve, and carried on the unit colours after that.

    Leave a comment:


  • DeV
    replied
    Tried to read a fair whack of the report and find it a bit had to follow considering most of it appears to be about 35 Inf Bn rather than specifically A Coy.

    The main problem the initial medal board had was there was only 1 medal they could consider awarding, the MMG. The bar being set very high by Tpr Browne’s 2nd class MMG for his actions at Niemba

    Leave a comment:


  • Jaque'ammer
    replied
    Capture.PNG

    A lot will be made of this particular passage anyway (Page 332 of the report)

    Leave a comment:


  • DeV
    replied
    Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
    Our treatment of Veterans as a rule leaves much to be desired. The ONE is a relatively recent creation, and receives little support from DF authorities. The fact that a Lt General felt it did not do enough to support those who had been overseas, and set up a rival group, in itself speaks multitudes.
    Should we expect otherwise given the way we have always treated serving personnel



    not saying it’s right

    Leave a comment:


  • na grohmiti
    replied
    Our treatment of Veterans as a rule leaves much to be desired. The ONE is a relatively recent creation, and receives little support from DF authorities. The fact that a Lt General felt it did not do enough to support those who had been overseas, and set up a rival group, in itself speaks multitudes.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jaque'ammer
    replied
    https://military.ie/en/public-inform...oup-report.pdf

    The review group has 19 recommendations as follows:

    * The Defence Forces should now engage with ONUC veterans, focussing initially on those who served with the 35 Infantry Battalion and 1 Infantry Group, to identify, to offer, and to arrange support to those requiring it.

    * The Defence Forces should review, with a view to expanding, its Mental Health and Well-being Strategy to support the wider Defence Community of serving personnel, veterans, and their families.

    * Both the Department of Defence and the Defence Forces should enhance their financial and material support for Veterans’ Centres and Drop-in Centres operating under the auspices of the Organisation of National Ex-Service Personnel (ONE) and the Irish United Nations Veterans’ Association (IUNVA).

    * In order to refer personnel for appropriate treatment on retirement or on transition to civilian employment, the Defence Forces should endeavour to identify personnel who may be susceptible to mental health issues attributable to military service, arising from experiences or actions on operational deployments, in training environments, or on disaster and humanitarian operations.

    * The Independent Review Group recommends that the Government appoints a Commissioner for Veterans’ Affairs, who through a statutory office of veterans’ affairs and a Defence Forces
    Covenant, would act as an ‘ambassador’ for veterans. The Commissioner should coordinate veteran support across government departments and local authorities, should enhance collaboration
    between recognised veterans’ associations, should provide transition support for retirees (including advice on disability pensions), and should provide much needed advice, assistance and support to veterans and their families.

    * In recognition of the role of parents, wives and families residing in Athlone, Galway, Mullingar and elsewhere during the Battle of Jadotville and the subsequent period in captivity, the Independent Review Group strongly recommends that a plaque in their honour be affixed to the memorial honouring personnel of ‘A’ Company, 35 Infantry Battalion in Custume Barracks, Athlone.

    * The Independent Review Group recommends that the 60th Anniversary of Jadotville should be a State-led event, focussing on veterans and veterans’ families, placing them at the centre
    of the ceremony, which should be an all-inclusive military ceremony encompassing Jadotville, Elisabethville and Kamina.

    * The Defence Forces should undertake an authoritative and systematic study of its involvement in the major peace support operations, beginning with the Congo, with a view to using these for research, instructional and educational purposes in the Military College, in the other Defence Forces’ training institutions, and throughout the Defence Forces itself.

    * Based on its experiences researching the Defence Forces involvement in Katanga in 1961, including Elisabethville, Jadotville and Kamina, the Independent Review Group recommends that the Defence Forces undertakes a series of reference publications covering major deployments and operations at home and overseas.

    * Having analysed the material in Military Archives from the 1961, 1962 and 1965 Medals Boards, examined the processes conducted by these three Medals Boards, and its review of
    the provisions of DFR A5 Courts of Inquiry, DFR A19 (1948), DFR A19 (1965),2 DFR A9 (New Series) (2001) and Rules of Procedure, the Independent Review Group is strongly of
    the view that there is no merit in reopening the recommendations of the 1961, 1962 and 1965 Medals Boards. Accordingly, the Independent Review Group recommends that the deliberations, findings and recommendations of the 1961, 1962 and 1965 Medals Boards should not be reopened.

    * Grounded on its:
    • analysis of the Battle of Jadotville and events encompassing Jadotville,
    • coupled with information conveyed by veterans and families during interviews,
    • the contents of Chapter 9: 1962 Medals Board and Chapter 10: 1965 Medals Board,
    • and following extensive research, no new primary source evidence was identified
    which, along with the relevant 1961 witness statements, would lead to a robust prima facie case for the consideration of a recommendation for a medal, excluding Lt T. Quinlan, Sgt W. Hegarty and Pte J. Freery who were awarded a Distinguished Service Medal, the Independent Review Group recommends that none of the other thirty-three members of ‘A’ Company 35 Infantry Battalion, who were previously the subject of a recommendation for an award in respect of Jadotville, should be reconsidered for a recommendation for a medal.

    *
    Based on its:
    • analysis of the Battle of Jadotville and events encompassing Jadotville,
    • coupled with information conveyed by veterans and veterans’ families during
    interviews
    • the contents of Chapter 9: 1962 Medals Board and Chapter 10: 1965 Medals Board,
    • and following extensive research and analysis no primary source evidence was identified which would lead to a robust prima facie case for the consideration of a recommendation for a medal,
    the Independent Review Group recommends that, with the exception of Comdt Pat Quinlan, none of the remaining 123 individuals of ‘A’ Company, 35 Infantry Battalion who were not previously the subject of a recommendation for an award in respect of Jadotville, should be considered for a recommendation for a medal.

    * The Independent Review Group recommends that since a prima facie case now exists, a medal process be initiated, without delay, for the consideration of a recommendation of a posthumous award of the Distinguished Service Medal for Comdt Pat Quinlan


    * The Independent Review Group recommends that Comdt Pat Quinlan’s case should focus on the activities of ‘A’ Company under his leadership as company commander, reflecting comparable cases of Distinguished Service Medals awarded to company and troop commanders who served in ONUC.

    * Since the unique political, diplomatic and military environment associated with the Battle of Jadotville, and events encompassing Jadotville in 1961, amounts to ‘extreme circumstances’, the Independent Review Group recommends that Comdt Pat Quinlan’s case should not be seen as a precedent for initiating retrospective awards in the Defence Forces.

    * The Independent Review Group recommends that the Defence Forces Regulation in the yearly series should include the necessary provisions not only to initiate an award process, but also to ensure that Comdt Quinlan’s case is seen as a unique, exceptional, and once-off case.

    * The Defence Forces should review the system of awarding medals to ensure its regulations and administrative instructions provide for a clear, coherent and comprehensive awards system that is overseen by an appropriate, independent, permanent Medals Award body that will bring oversight, accountability, objectivity, and transparency to it. This is essential to ensure the integrity and credibility of the medals awards system is maintained and protected.

    * The Defence Forces should ensure the decision to award a medal is based solely on the recommendation and supportive evidence made for it to a Medals Board. The Medals Board’s decision should not be influenced by the number of cases before it, or by considerations such as regional or sector balance in the distribution of awards

    * The existing citations linked to the award of a medal should be reviewed, with a view to adding clarity and relevant information for each citation. The text of citations and details of the actions for which they were awarded should be placed in the public domain by the Defence Forces.

    * The integrity and status of An Bonn Jadotville should be retained. An Bonn Jadotville should be afforded due respect in recognition of the actions of ‘A’ Company while serving with ONUC in Jadotville, September 1961.

    * The status of the Unit Citations should be clarified through the provision of a regulatory basis.

    * The concept of a military committee system for awarding medals to remove it from the control of the regulations governing Rules of Procedure and Courts of Inquiry should be examined.

    Leave a comment:


  • DeV
    replied
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...06530?mode=amp

    Independent review of the lack of medal awards

    Leave a comment:


  • EUFighter
    replied
    Jadotville gets the Simple History treatment (already 35,000 views today)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9yquVGZrQU

    Leave a comment:


  • recoil
    replied
    More Congo footage.
    leaving the Curragh
    https://www.britishpathe.com/video/V...ry/congo+irish

    L60s being fired in the Glen I think.
    https://www.britishpathe.com/video/V...ry/congo+irish

    Wounded irish soldier
    https://www.britishpathe.com/video/V...ry/congo+irish

    Looks like irish soldiers at end of clip.
    https://www.gettyimages.ie/detail/vi...?adppopup=true

    Leave a comment:


  • recoil
    replied
    I put the footage on this forum because none others seemed appropriate. Move it or delete if it has been posted before.

    Footage of Irish troops leaving Dublin and arriving in Congo. The difference between the Irish and Swedish soldiers gear is interesting.

    https://www.shutterstock.com/video/c...ops-blessed-by

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X