Ireland-A strategic advantage for the Axis in WW2?

[yellowjacket]

In 1940, the Germans had almost no amphibious capability.

The phoney war was from Sept 1939-May 1940, before Dunkirk.

If Britain had fallen, Ireland would have been easy meat definitely, but at that stage, Ireland wouldn't be too relevant.

An Irish resistance to the Germans would have been way different to the War of Independence. As other countries showed, the Germans would have had none of the scruples the British showed in Ireland (even allowing for British abuses during the War of Independence).

[Groundhog]

An Irish resistance to the Germans would have been way different to the War of Independence. As other countries showed, the Germans would have had none of the scruples the British showed in Ireland (even allowing for British abuses during the War of Independence).

Yeah it would have been totally different since the IRA were helping the Germans. The Brits didn't show many scruples in Ireland no more than we did in whacking RIC and British soldiers. In fact one SS man being interrogated by the Brits about war crimes against French Partisans wanted to know why it was so bad for the Germans to do to the French what the Brits did to the Irish in the 20's. Having said all that you gotta admire the pan-Germanic broederbund. They are mean bastards.

[paul g]

The German navy had suffered quite heavy losses in the Norwegian campaign, and even sealion was beyond their capabilities, getting to irealnd unless the british were defeated would have been impossible for them. As for resistance, remembering what the germans did in France, Yugoslavia, Russia, perhaps its best that this is a fantasy.

[California Tanker]

I think it is pretty much accepted that the Germans never -really- intended to invade the UK.. They hadn't the amphibious force ability, and there's no way they'd have stopped the Royal Navy from simply sitting in the channel sinking barges. (Either literally, or with hit-and-runs from E-boats and destroyers). As it was, most of the forces for Sea Lion were being dispatched for the Russian Front even before the Battle of Britain was won or lost.

I think the best point of view for Germany would have been the use of Cobh. Provide a nice base of operations on the other side of the English Channel, nice and easy to get at the Atlantic convoy routes. They wouldn't even need to take over the whole country.. just grab a bit of Cork. (Would the lads in Dublin miss it?)

NTM

[Widow-Maker]

The thought of the Germans having Cobh as a naval base (deep harbour, naturally well-defended) would have been of great strategic importance for their Navy all right, helping to cut off a large section of the Allied supply route.
However, that idea would be totally impractical. Holding on to a small bit of Cork, waiting for the Irish DF to arrive, never mind the trains from the North. Sitting ducks.
Actually Cork people might as well be speaking German, cos i can't understand them half the time!

[T.I.M.]

Cobh would be an excelent site to occupy during WW II but their was too much of a risk factoe in taking it, firstly the brits would of minded their lifline being cut off from under their noses and interviened! the yanks would also have landed forces to prevent re-caputure from german forces after dec 7th 1942, and their would most likley be a U.S.A.F.B. somewhere in ireland right now if the germans did invade!

[sparks]

"In fact one SS man being interrogated by the Brits about war crimes against French Partisans wanted to know why it was so bad for the Germans to do to the French what the Brits did to the Irish in the 20's."

only difference was who was writting the history books.

[yellowjacket]

Look up Ouradur-Sur-Glane. http://www.cpmac.com/spip/article.php3?id_article=276

Show me an example of something anything like that occurring in the Irish War of Independence.

[Goldie fish]

is that place still standing?

[Tony Williams]

I believe that the ruins of Oradur are preserved as a memorial.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and Discussion forum

[LordFlash]

You just can not compare German war crimes with British war crimes in Ireland, they are just two wholly different levels. (Not undermining British/Irish -both sides played dirty- war crimes in Ireland by saying this, but German savagry was a whole new level). German war crimes were exacting and on grand scales. War crimes in Ireland were usually localised and frequently impetious.

at any rate the Germans kind of expected the Brits to call it even after dunkirk, that in my opinion was why they did not push for the pocket to be crushed. (hoever in the book Dunkirk other reasons were also cited such as Goerings claims that the luftwaffe could have done the job).

The Huns were somewhat counting on having the Brits on their side in their long term plans, the Royal Navy was a major power to have on your side. So plans for Operation sea Lion were never taken very seriously.
Operation fel Grun counted heavily on mistaken intelligence, ie: that the IRA was strong enought to overthrow the Irish government with minimal German assistance. All German plans with regard to Ireland were deeply flawed by this gross inaccuracy. The fact that the Irish Government/ Army Intelligence were thinking the same thing ensured that such a plan could never come to fruition as most IRA men were either closely watched or in custody.
any German assistance would have been minimal, as they were less concerned with occcupation of Ireland that with distracting the British and installing a Friendly reigme. also the Royal navy and the RAF would have prevented any meaningful forces arriving in Ireland.

The final reason the germans were not serious about either operation,.... BARBAROSSA!!

this was the big one, the whole impetious behind their idealoligy and expansion. Many say that this was the crushing flaw behind the German war effort-and are in that fact right-, but forget that this was in fact the whole point of german expansion.
Britain looked at the time like they lacked any offensive capability, so it appeared "safe" to pursue other avenues.
In fact it looked like the oppertunity to deal with the russians before the Brits were strong enough to take the offensive to the Germans.

[ias]

War Crimes

Surely a "war crime" is a "war crime" - especially if your on the receiving end of it!

If a country wants to be treated a bastion of democracy then they must not act as terrorists!


IAS

[LordFlash]

by that reasoning the bombing of German cities during WWII was a war crime,.... but it was an important factor in the defeat of Germany.
I have to disagree with you ias.
In practice the level of desperation is usually the indicator of what is permissable and not permissable in war. We would all agree now that nukeing an enemy city and killing millions of civvies is a war crime, but what is the west was being over-run?
Surely if our Western System was being over-run, and we were on the loosing side of a war of annihilation it would be permissable to use WMD? Almost certainly!

[yellowjacket]

This thread is going off topic.

If a thread about the morality of war is wanted, start it in general.

[LordFlash]

Dear God Yellow Jacket, you guys seem to running a tight ship with regards to keeping things on topic these days...

On topic however is the following,

was there not a British signals unit attached to Cathal Brugha Barracks during the war? Just in case Harry Hun did invade, then cooperation between Irish and Allied troops would be somewhat facilitated by this.
As it was I understand that the idea was for Irish troops to be first to engage any invading Axis forces,... for political reasons naturally, and only then for allied forces to intervene.

In my opinion had german paras dropped in Ireland, there would have been a blood-bath. german paras would have fought well, but no IRA support would have materialised, leaving them somewhat in the lurch. the Irish Army, sadly somewhat under equipped and bloated from recent expansion would have had a difficult but inevitable victory. It would have been messy, as is always the case when overwhelming numbers engage a small number of very well equipped and highly motivated troops like Paras.
Even if the Germans were to recieve reinforcement or supplies, it would have been light and sporadic, so that even were Irish troops unable to evict the invaders, they would still contain them untill Allied forces turned up.

Any other speculations?