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Market Garden, Montys gamble at Arnhem.

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  • Market Garden, Montys gamble at Arnhem.

    Market Garden, An operation name which has gone down in histroy as one of the most costly failures of the entire of the second world war. But what was its long term aims and why was such a bold and (even at the time) potentially disastrous plan allowed to proceed. Could it under any stretch of the imagination have worked and what would the effects have been on post war Europe.
    I ask a simple question, Could operation market garden have worked and what would the effects have been in both the later months of the war and the early years of post war Europe.
    I want those who bother to vote to post not only why they think what they think but also what they believe the results would have been (within the given parameters).
    46
    Yes
    28.26%
    13
    No
    71.74%
    33
    Its a victimless crime, like punching someone in the dark.

  • #2
    A bridge to Far gives the background, the whys, the wherefores, and a lot of reasoning as to why it went ahead,
    Have you read it?
    "We will hold out until our last bullet is spent. Could do with some whiskey"
    Radio transmission, siege of Jadotville DR Congo. September 1961.
    Illegitimi non carborundum

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    • #3
      hmm

      Havent read that particular one but now you mention it I'l go take a look. I'l give my reasoning for my decision in later.
      Its a victimless crime, like punching someone in the dark.

      Comment


      • #4
        Roy the boy browning..has to take most of the flak...any way Airborne troops were over strected from the inception..
        Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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        • #5
          The Film ' A Bridge to far ' is also a good reference . Most of The gliders were either shot out of the sky or landed in and around the enemy, not giving them much chance to organise,and regroup .They quickly suffered heavy casualties and The request by senior officers for more troops to be dropped in was denied by the top brass.This was to partily to blame for the failure of the mission.
          Last edited by haribo; 8 July 2006, 02:28.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by hptmurphy
            Roy the boy browning..has to take most of the flak...any way Airborne troops were over strected from the inception..
            Why?? It was Monty's plan.

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            • #7
              Hi all
              I thought it was Browning who uttered the famous line about it all being a "Bridge Too Far"....Bad intelligence (no clue about the SS refitting in and around Arnhem), arrogance(they thought they could push the Germans aside and refused to believe that German "scratch" formations could fight), bad radios (for a country that was winning the electronic war, to be let down by field radios was a sick joke), badly-co-ordinated anti-tank defence (one gun knocked out one tank and fired only once more) and the Nijmegen road (one vehicle wide) was just a total mess....it was Crete all over again, this time on the Allies' side.
              regards
              GttC

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              • #8
                Browning chose to ignore the intelligence available to him at the time. he had the final say in the plan.
                Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                • #9
                  well the film I did see

                  Why?? It was Monty's plan.
                  This is true and it was in many ways flawed from the very outset but Browning could have called it off if he had payed better attention to the reports recieved from the Dutch resistence.
                  bad radios (for a country that was winning the electronic war, to be let down by field radios was a sick joke)
                  "yes but Holland being half under water tends to be somewhat sogier than most deserts you happen to find... tends to have a lot more trees"
                  and the Nijmegen road (one vehicle wide) was just a total mess
                  The club route as it was named but by the end of the operation it had aquired a much more grim name "hells highway".
                  Mind you there are those who believe that had the operation taken place during a one day drop instead of the staggered droop which was used then the objectives may have been atainable. As it was general Sosabowski's Polish brigade was heavily delayed by bad weather.
                  Worse still a drop zone 8 miles from Arnhem bridge was hardly ideal (overestimation of German flak).
                  By the way here be a useless fact for yawl, Dirk Bogarde who in the movie plays Lt Gen. Browning was actually at Arnhem.
                  Its a victimless crime, like punching someone in the dark.

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                  • #10
                    Paras are nothing more than unsupported scattered infantry and as such useless for major opperations.On a good day they are little more than a nuisance value and Hitler realised this after the Crete debacle.

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                    • #11
                      If intelligence was fully acted upon, if the coreect radios were used in the British Sector and if the drop zones were more easily defended and were closer to Arnhem bridge, who Knows but it might have worked.
                      Browning and Monty both should have taken fully blame for the failure of the operation.
                      Its class to think that the British landed right on top of 2 SS panzer divisions who were refitting in preparation inn what they though was the bigger threat to them General Patton further south. Sheer class
                      Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato

                      "Where there is no guidance the people fall, but in abundance of counselors there is victory" Proverbs 11-14
                      http://munsterfireandrescue.com

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by haribo
                        The Film ' A Bridge to far ' is also a good reference . Most of The gliders were either shot out of the sky or landed in and around the enemy, not giving them much chance to organise,and regroup .They quickly suffered heavy casualties and The request by senior officers for more troops to be dropped in was denied by the top brass.This was to partily to blame for the failure of the mission.
                        Actually, the landings were near perfect. It was only after the landings that things went wrong. Even the Film portrays a good initial landing. Subsequent landings went belly up alright.

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                        • #13
                          When you compare the effort of organising an air armada to that of organising a few engineers with a few humble baily bridges the whole thing makes no sense other than Monty wanting to be flash and enhance his reputation.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by MooseMan
                            When you compare the effort of organising an air armada to that of organising a few engineers with a few humble baily bridges the whole thing makes no sense other than Monty wanting to be flash and enhance his reputation.
                            Monty , like that other Donkey Haig, gambled with mens lifes to enhance there own reputations .
                            http://www.edhelper.com/ReadingCompr...on_35_270.html

                            Quote '(They were lions led by Donkeys ' (unknown)
                            Last edited by haribo; 9 July 2006, 14:32.

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                            • #15
                              Hi Moose
                              Given the vigour with which the Paras fought and the number of enemy casualties caused, they could be considered as being of more value than nuisance. Certainly, they gave the SS a hard time.Equally, the German paras were well-regarded as tough opponents, right to the end, even if they never made a useful jump after Crete. Paras, in general, were valuable in upsetting the German response in the Normandy assault. Nowadays, it might be debatable, given the vulnerability of drop aircraft and the availability of AA weapons.
                              Personally, I'd regard Arnhem as a draw.
                              regards
                              GttC

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