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Market Garden, Montys gamble at Arnhem.

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  • #16
    Originally posted by haribo
    Quote '(They were lions led by Donkeys ' (unknown)
    It was from a conversation between German generals Erich Ludendorff and Max Hoffmann.

    Ludendorff: The English soldiers fight like lions.
    Hoffmann: True. But don't we know that they are lions led by donkeys.
    The school of artillery told us it couldn't be done...
    They were wrong.

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    • #17
      it has to be the most stupid operation in military history. Even if it was a "sucess" it would achieved nothing.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner
        Paras, in general, were valuable in upsetting the German response in the Normandy assault. Nowadays, it might be debatable, given the vulnerability of drop aircraft and the availability of AA weapons.
        Also bear in mind the availability nowadays of helicopters to drop large amounts of troops in a single spot, even in the middle of a city (by fast rope, but this is suicide if the enemy has his sh!t together). Which is much preferable to spreading them all over the countryside with parachute drops.

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        • #19
          [QUOTE=MOB87][QUOTE]
          It was from a conversation between German generals Erich Ludendorff and Max Hoffmann.

          Ludendorff: The English soldiers fight like lions.
          Hoffmann: True. But don't we know that they are lions led by donkeys.
          It was indeed , Dankeschoen .
          Last edited by haribo; 9 July 2006, 16:48.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by MOB87
            It was from a conversation between German generals Erich Ludendorff and Max Hoffmann.

            Ludendorff: The English soldiers fight like lions.
            Hoffmann: True. But don't we know that they are lions led by donkeys.

            Consensus is that this never happened, Alan Clark made it up.
            "Hello, Good Evening and Bollocks..."

            Roger Mellie

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            • #21
              Originally posted by combatlogo
              Alan Clark made it up.
              I don't know why - but that is almost too believable.
              Meh.

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              • #22
                market garden was a complete failure!!!! it failed in its basic objective to out flank german western defences and to occupy german industrial regions in an attempt to bring the german war machine to its knees and end the war by christmas it very clear that did not happen!! the concept of dropping paratroopers behind enemy lines and expect an armour formation to advance up a single road to link up with them beggers belief!!! a small number of german troops dug in every couple kms would be needed to hold up any advance which was the case!! and to compound matters futher they landed on two elite ss panzer divisons 9th and 10th.i was only speaking to an vetern of the 9th ss panzer divsion, he had seen action on the eastern front , normandy and arnhem. he was telling me his exsperience on the eastern front and on the wetern front i asked him what was it like at arnhem? i asked did the allies have chance?? his answer was quite blunt "no". he repled that after the first day the 9th and 10 th had reorganized and was putting massive pressure on the allies at every turn, "they did not have a chance we where well dug in good tank support and artillery theres was a lost cause we held the cards" i have the most upmost respect for all the men who fought at arnhem weather they german,british american,polish but the fact is the germans stopped the allies in there trackes and market garden failed!!!!!!!

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                • #23
                  The film and Cornelius Ryans book on which it is based are an accurate portrayal of what happened. Another good read is "Arnhem: A tragedy of Errors" by Peter Harclerode (Caxtod Editions 1994).
                  It is true that senior British commanders have a to take the lions share of the blame for the whole debacle. However, Eisenhower as supreme commander should be let off the hook either! It was his lack of decisiveness and command authority that led to the vacilliation and his attempts to reach compromsises between his SUBORDINATE commanders instead of issuing an order, that resulted in a delay to the mission launch that undoubdtedly asissted the regrouping of German forces in Holland
                  Monty was an ego maniac-not my sole opinion- but the opinion of many learned historians intent on enhancing his own reputation above all else.
                  Brownings insistance of flying in the 1st Airborne Corps headquarters on day one at the expense of more airborne infantry or an anti-tank unit did nothing to help the british cause and Horrocks as Commander of XXX (30) Corps (the ground element) charing up a single Highway was equallybizare. Even more so when the dutch had planned ofr similar contingencies before the war and had identfied a "safer" and more efficent way to get armour up country using the colateral road net works (details are in Ryans book)

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                  • #24
                    In short I don't think itwould have worked even if Ike hadn't delayed it. The killer for it all was the loss of initative and momentum on the part of the allies -for waht ever reason, that allowed so many germans to get out of the Antwerp pocket- these troops then played a signifcant part in the German counter-attacks during the whole fiasco at Arnhem.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                      Hi all
                      I thought it was Browning who uttered the famous line about it all being a "Bridge Too Far"....Bad intelligence (no clue about the SS refitting in and around Arnhem), arrogance(they thought they could push the Germans aside and refused to believe that German "scratch" formations could fight), bad radios (for a country that was winning the electronic war, to be let down by field radios was a sick joke), badly-co-ordinated anti-tank defence (one gun knocked out one tank and fired only once more) and the Nijmegen road (one vehicle wide) was just a total mess....it was Crete all over again, this time on the Allies' side.
                      regards
                      GttC
                      How about this for nerdy goodness- Communications at the Battle of Arnhem: A Modern- Day Technical Analysis... http://www.atdi.co.uk/paperdocument/...r%20web(3).pdf
                      "Gentlemen, you can’t fight in here...this is the War Room!"

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                      • #26
                        Like the man said a bridge too far, the british jump off point (armour) was too far back to slogup along a single rd
                        Lifes a bitch, so be her pimp!

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                        • #27
                          While, yes it was probably a bridge too far, it did provide a strong right flank for operations in Northern Belgium. The Germans Northern Belgium / Southern Netherlands were cut off and this allowed Antwerp to be taken, thereby improving the supply situation.
                          Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. Margaret Mead

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                          • #28
                            There was reliable intelligence reports of SS armour in the area.

                            The operational planning was rushed (done in 1 week).

                            The ground forces had to move along a single narrow raised road with soft ground (unsuitable for armour to each side).

                            Troops in Arnhen had no access to reinforcements or supplies.

                            Not enough aircraft.

                            Poor radios - some arrived with the wrong tuning crystals (and so were useless).

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by DeV View Post
                              The operational planning was rushed (done in 1 week).
                              The plan was built upon several other operations that did not happen (Usually due to ground troops over running the objectives before the plan could be put into operation). It didn't require more than a week due to the fact that much of the operational planning had already been done.

                              What had been missing was the objective..... and hence intell on the obj.

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                              • #30
                                The operational planning would have included:

                                -the location of the DZs
                                - logistical support (supplies had to come all the way from England, via the Normandy beaches/Cherbourg/air)
                                - organising "chalks" on aircraft/gliders for around 35 thousand men
                                - (the lack of) changes to plans based on intelligence
                                - the rapid need for the airborne divisions' heavier weapons (eg light airmobile artillery, the 101st had to wait for this for 2 days)
                                - the plan if the orginal plan (to capture the Arnhen bridge with machine gun armed jeeps) failed
                                - communications planning (radios types, frequencies etc)
                                - lack of close air support
                                - once the troops were dropped in Arnhem, the Germans immediately knew what the ultimate objective was
                                - competing priorities (eg the 101st, 62nd and the Brits)

                                The plans for other operations were more or less useless (this was one of the biggest operations of the war and covered a completely different area). The planning of Market Garden took one week, the airborne invasions of Normandy and Sicily took months.

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