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  • The material on the collars on the second type(not elvis collar) shirt would wear away over time and the angled chest pockets became redundant once GSBA/battlevest became a thing.Hence the move to ripstop material and flat ,and then no, chest pockets.
    If we are discussing shirts

    1) I never saw the shirt wear you mention and you'd never wear the shirt in the field it was always smock and tshirt for me anyway
    2) UBACS seems to do the biz for GSBA and BV and my experience wearing the shirt under the body armour

    none of this is a reason to remove the pockets off the DPM shirt
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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    • Originally posted by apod View Post
      There was.On both counts. The material on the collars on the second type(not elvis collar) shirt would wear away over time and the angled chest pockets became redundant once GSBA/battlevest became a thing.Hence the move to ripstop material and flat ,and then no, chest pockets.

      One could argue that with the advent of UBACS we could go back to the original design shirt as it's supposed to be part of Bks dress now.The Brits did that.Cheaper too as their Bks shirt isn't IRR treated. Of course that would cause a snag as to what PDF recruits and AR personnel would wear in the field in warm weather as they aren't scaled for UBACS.
      Look at the shirt material now compared to what I was initially issued. Really really warm even in an office/classroom which is not good. If it’s rip stop is there a need for it as it’s supposed to be barracks wear?

      Is it the buttons or the pockets themselves that create an issue?

      Also the pockets on the newer shirts are useless compared to the previous shirt.

      We have been left with a shirt with no pockets (to allow for field wear) that isn’t suitable for field wear and isn’t used for field wear because the majority are issued a suitable alternative. And looks odd when worn in barracks.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by apod View Post
        Of course that would cause a snag as to what PDF recruits and AR personnel would wear in the field in warm weather as they aren't scaled for UBACS.
        Change scale of issue?
        What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by trellheim View Post
          If we are discussing shirts

          1) I never saw the shirt wear you mention and you'd never wear the shirt in the field it was always smock and tshirt for me anyway
          2) UBACS seems to do the biz for GSBA and BV and my experience wearing the shirt under the body armour

          none of this is a reason to remove the pockets off the DPM shirt
          1/ Perhaps because you didn't wear it as much as someone who wears it everyday???.Trust me. It happened. I used to do the same(smock/t-shirt) when the DPMS first came out.Most of us did. Until we copped that the shirt was more than just a shirt it was cut like a lightweight jacket(Incidentally the Brits called theirs Jackets and wore them tucked in like a shirt). I still did smock/t-shirt in winter when GSBA became a thing.
          2/ It does. I would never wear a shirt with either again.



          Look at the shirt material now compared to what I was initially issued. Really really warm even in an office/classroom which is not good. If it’s rip stop is there a need for it as it’s supposed to be barracks wear?
          Glad to say the 2018 shirts and up are made from the new lighter weight material(same as the smock/trousers). I hated the 2010 -2017 shirts.Especially the 2012s which were like a shiny plastic bag. The 2018s are sooooooooo much more comfortable even if they look a little strange. Ripstop wasn't introduced just to stop rips in the field.It makes the material stronger and less liable to wear through.I never had a single issue with the collars on the 2010-2017 shirts thanks to the ripstop. The right underarm? Now that's a different story. Nametag velcro ends rub against the right sleeve and wear down the material. A former SNCO at my callsigns 2010 shirt got so bad he wore a complete hole in the sleeve. Never an issue with the pre 2010 shirt as the velcro was angled away from the arm/armpit.

          Is it the buttons or the pockets themselves that create an issue?
          Bit of both. Buttons are not good under armour.They dig in and can also be a secondary shrapnel hazard in certain circumstances. The pockets were an issue for the females.So naturally the whole DF changed to accommodate the minority
          Also the pockets on the newer shirts are useless compared to the previous shirt.
          Are you referring to the original design pockets vs the flat chest pockets or the flat chest pockets vs the new style sleeve pockets?

          We have been left with a shirt with no pockets (to allow for field wear) that isn’t suitable for field wear and isn’t used for field wear because the majority are issued a suitable alternative. And looks odd when worn in barracks.
          No.We have left with a shirt with no chest pockets to keep the females happy that is primarily intended for Bks wear but has to be used in the field by certain users by virtue of the fact they are not issued anything else. The sleeve pockets were a compromise.Remember that the trial 2017 Ptn shirt only had a pend pocket and nothing else. The right sleeve UBACS style pocket was a bodge on after people complained and the UBACS style pocket on both sleeve was brought about after people complained again.And we still didn't get that right as because someone has insisted on leaving the Tricolour patch in it's traditional position which has led to the pockets having to be placed lower on the sleeves. FFS people the sky won't fall if we move the tricolour onto the pocket velcro panel!!

          Originally posted by ODIN View Post
          Change scale of issue?
          I agree. RDFRA should be lobbying for an expanded AR scale of issue. One UBACS after 18 Months service would be perfectly reasonable.Boonie hat needs to be on the scale as well.Ridiculous it's not after all this time. Having said that be careful what you wish for.The latest variant is gank
          "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by apod View Post
            The pockets were an issue for the females.

            Are you referring to the original design pockets vs the flat chest pockets or the flat chest pockets vs the new style sleeve pockets?
            https://images.app.goo.gl/WmP9fg9sC8xY1QQ36 These were useful pockets

            https://images.app.goo.gl/LSENnWDv6HTuHp2K7 These are not and afaik females only had an issue with these

            No.We have left with a shirt with no chest pockets to keep the females happy that is primarily intended for Bks wear but has to be used in the field by certain users by virtue of the fact they are not issued anything else. The sleeve pockets were a compromise.Remember that the trial 2017 Ptn shirt only had a pend pocket and nothing else. The right sleeve UBACS style pocket was a bodge on after people complained and the UBACS style pocket on both sleeve was brought about after people complained again.And we still didn't get that right as because someone has insisted on leaving the Tricolour patch in it's traditional position which has led to the pockets having to be placed lower on the sleeves. FFS people the sky won't fall if we move the tricolour onto the pocket velcro panel!!
            Sh*te for barracks and field

            Comment


            • The newer shirt is a step in the right direction. It’s a lighter material and it’s compatible with body armour. It’s addresses the ridiculous lob sided pen pocket/ shoulder pocket issue (who’d have thought you can put a pen in a normal Ubacs style pocket). There’s room for improvement certainly such as placing the flag on the blanking plate and swapping buttons for zips but one step at a time.

              But most of all it offers an alternative to the ubacs, which is designed for warm weather which Ireland sees little of. a shirt that can be layered on top of a dry flow is a welcome option for the colder months where a smock might be too much. It’s not perfect but it’s in line with best international practice and not based on how it looks on a majors parade.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Hobo hunter View Post
                The newer shirt is a step in the right direction. It’s a lighter material and it’s compatible with body armour. It’s addresses the ridiculous lob sided pen pocket/ shoulder pocket issue (who’d have thought you can put a pen in a normal Ubacs style pocket). There’s room for improvement certainly such as placing the flag on the blanking plate and swapping buttons for zips but one step at a time.

                But most of all it offers an alternative to the ubacs, which is designed for warm weather which Ireland sees little of. a shirt that can be layered on top of a dry flow is a welcome option for the colder months where a smock might be too much. It’s not perfect but it’s in line with best international practice and not based on how it looks on a majors parade.
                The new shirt is not compatible with body armour bar the sleeve pockets.It still retains a traditional shirt collar which is not suited to wear with GSBA and as said it has buttons instead of a zip.
                As for wearing DRYFLOs under UBACS. It is done all the time. No issues .Way more comfortable than wearing a shirt under GSBA.
                "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

                Comment


                • Got a good look at the latest pattern DPM shirt yesterday (Two UBACS style sleeve pockets).

                  The pen pocket has been wadied completely. None on the lower sleeve or inside either sleeve pockets. They have fixed one problem(the shirts lopsided appearance) but in the process have created another (no pen pocket) GRRRR

                  Can we EVER get anything right!!
                  "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by apod View Post
                    Got a good look at the latest pattern DPM shirt yesterday (Two UBACS style sleeve pockets).

                    The pen pocket has been wadied completely. None on the lower sleeve or inside either sleeve pockets. They have fixed one problem(the shirts lopsided appearance) but in the process have created another (no pen pocket) GRRRR

                    Can we EVER get anything right!!
                    God forbid we put a pen in a normal pocket ????


                    There’s so many variations of uniform in circulation at this point uniformity is almost impossible

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Hobo hunter View Post
                      God forbid we put a pen in a normal pocket ????


                      There’s so many variations of uniform in circulation at this point uniformity is almost impossible
                      What happens when you put a pen in a NORMAL sleeve pocket?? It moves around.That's what. Jamming into you at all the wrong angles and making it harder to get out quickly when you need it.
                      "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by apod View Post
                        Got a good look at the latest pattern DPM shirt yesterday (Two UBACS style sleeve pockets).

                        The pen pocket has been wadied completely. None on the lower sleeve or inside either sleeve pockets. They have fixed one problem(the shirts lopsided appearance) but in the process have created another (no pen pocket) GRRRR

                        Can we EVER get anything right!!
                        Forgive me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the "Pen Pouch" originally an FFD pouch, that got redesigned by someone who spent more time in an office then in the field?
                        It was the year of fire...the year of destruction...the year we took back what was ours.
                        It was the year of rebirth...the year of great sadness...the year of pain...and the year of joy.
                        It was a new age...It was the end of history.
                        It was the year everything changed.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by CTU View Post
                          Forgive me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the "Pen Pouch" originally an FFD pouch, that got redesigned by someone who spent more time in an office then in the field?
                          No mate.Your'e wrong.
                          "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by apod View Post
                            No mate.Your'e wrong.
                            Fair enough. For some reason, I remember seeing a picture from an overseas mission where that pouch, seemed bulkier than a pen pouch, and it defently wasn't the smock.
                            It was the year of fire...the year of destruction...the year we took back what was ours.
                            It was the year of rebirth...the year of great sadness...the year of pain...and the year of joy.
                            It was a new age...It was the end of history.
                            It was the year everything changed.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by apod View Post
                              What happens when you put a pen in a NORMAL sleeve pocket?? It moves around.That's what. Jamming into you at all the wrong angles and making it harder to get out quickly when you need it.
                              Personally I’d prefer the extra pocket over the slight annoyance of a rogue pen, and if pen pockets are absolutely necessary (which they’re not) put them where other nations are putting them ie: the forearm, or go even further and mimic a shirt designed by nations with a much better r/d than the defence forces.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Hobo hunter View Post
                                Personally I’d prefer the extra pocket over the slight annoyance of a rogue pen, and if pen pockets are absolutely necessary (which they’re not) put them where other nations are putting them ie: the forearm, or go even further and mimic a shirt designed by nations with a much better r/d than the defence forces.
                                I think we were both in agreement but didn't realise it. My argument is exactly that. Give us two Bicep pockets for bulkier items(if not for symmetry) but KEEP a pen pocket also.My suggestion is the same.Lower sleeve. That might upset the "suns out,guns out" crew so an alternative is a pen pocket INSIDE the bicep pocket.
                                "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

                                Comment

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