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  • #46
    To shed

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    • #47
      Originally posted by apod View Post
      First the rumours.
      1/ Haix scout boot.An ankle high,nubuck and cordura boot will replace the current Haix ,full grain leather,Operational boot.

      2/ Haix scout boot will replace BOTH the current Haix operational boot AND the Magnum Light Operational barrack Boot.

      3/ Haix scout boot will be worn both Overseas and at home.

      4/ Haix scout boot will only be worn "on the ground" with Black barracks being retained for,barracks?

      5/ Soldiers will be issued one pair of Haix scout boots and they will be used for all activities except ceremonial. One pair.That's it.

      6/ Haix scout boots are only to be issued for overseas.

      Now.Anybody with IKON access can read the Minutes of the DF Clothing Committee,but they are scant on detail. So pretty much no help. So why are the above points an issue?


      Opinions please.
      1. Yes, but due to limited budget, only a few thousand have been bought. Personnel who are going overseas will be issued them.

      2. Yes, the plan is that the Haix Scout will replace both. Certain specific roles will require different boots eg arty and fitters, steel toe cap etc.

      3. Overseas initially. No plan or guidance formally issued for home usage as of yet.

      4. I would imagine for the purpose of uniformity and Sgt Majors not having cardiac fits this will be the case until the boot is full rolled out.

      5. No decision as of yet but its looking like it.

      6. Correct initially. The initial buy is not big enough to kit out everybody and existing stocks of the barrack boot and operation boot have not been depleted to an extent where a mass purchase of the Haix Scout can be completed.

      I'm of the opinion that its a decent boot for most of what we do, providing enough support for dismounted operations. For serious tabbing with 40 plus kilos I think an extra inch of height might have been better - The Haix Nepal Pro would probably be a better choice overall as its higher, the french have mass ordered it and it has the same sole unit and one less cordura panel - less to go wrong, but its an alright choice overall given the budget constraints at hand.


      The issue that I do have is that NO goretex boot works well in heat. Boots with an EPTFE membrane work best in cool dry conditions, despite what WL Gore say, goretex boots and similar competitors are not comfortable in hot enviroments.

      Where the insertion of membranes into "desert" boots seems to have come from is troops in Afghanistan and Iraq encountering open sewers in their regular foot patrols and literally coming back with boots full of sh1te.

      A membrane prevents this getting to the wearers foot, provided it never breaches the top, but what goes into the top, can't get back out again......

      Therefor I'd be of the opinion that a second boot non lined boot should be on issue to those going to hot dusty climes, Mali, summer in Lebanon, or if we ever go back to africa en masse.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Auldsod View Post
        UK multicam is effectively multicam mixed in with the old British DPM pattern. Could surely be done with the current style of Irish DPM.

        Then again, it might end up looking like a dog's dinner!
        When I was in doing my fitness test a few weeks ago and was waiting to sign the vetting form the Coy. Sergeant started talking to me and eventually the topic of the new uniforms came up. He mentioned he'd heard that they might keep the DPM colours but do them in a multicam pattern.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by BorderBandit View Post
          When I was in doing my fitness test a few weeks ago and was waiting to sign the vetting form the Coy. Sergeant started talking to me and eventually the topic of the new uniforms came up. He mentioned he'd heard that they might keep the DPM colours but do them in a multicam pattern.

          Which might look a bit like the above...

          I imagine it wouldnt be much/any better in arid environments - probably wouldnt look great with multicam/mpt bits either?

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          • #50
            Originally posted by pym View Post

            Which might look a bit like the above...

            I imagine it wouldnt be much/any better in arid environments - probably wouldnt look great with multicam/mpt bits either?
            Yeah, not sure I like the idea. I agree with what APOD said, I like the fact that Irish DPM is Irish. The standard green variation seems to be fine for here and from talking to others seems to do pretty well in european theatres too. I agree there should be a desert pattern brought on stream but I'm not sure how it would be done. Seeing as it would most likely be done in a penny pinching way I think they'd just issue it to deployments to certain regions but that means the admin work would need to be completed in time for the deployment date. Although, I think it was APOD who said that the patent on the camo runs out in 2 years or so? Does that mean the laws regarding reproductions would be relaxed too? If so that offers possible alternatives in the form of private purchases.

            As for boots, I think the scout looks a bit short but from people I've asked they say it's a decent boot.
            Just my thoughts

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            • #51
              BB.You do realise we already have a desert pattern.Don't you?
              And yes.It is only issued in small numbers and for certain missions.

              As for the scouts.Feedback I have heard hasn't been good.People saying it is grand for the Bks and when it's dry but not great in the wet.
              "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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              • #52
                MOD: Seriously folks.Keep to the topic.Discussion of uniform development should be over in the Soldier 2017 thread. I don't want to merge posts form this thread over to there as it would be messy so can we just stick to discussing the lunacy(IMHO) that is the Single boot concept.
                "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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                • #53
                  Sorry APOD, re read my post and it did come off like I was saying we didn't have one. RE the boots, the people I had heard from were using them for hunting/hiking and the like. How come they're so poor in the wet? Do they not have Goretex or anything along those lines?

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by BorderBandit View Post
                    Sorry APOD, re read my post and it did come off like I was saying we didn't have one. RE the boots, the people I had heard from were using them for hunting/hiking and the like. How come they're so poor in the wet? Do they not have Goretex or anything along those lines?
                    They do have a ePTFE lining. from what i have been told the problem is the Nubuck used for the upper as opposed to smooth full grain leather.
                    I have not been issued them myself ,and by all accounts it will be a while before I do but thats what is being said.
                    "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Truck Driver View Post
                      Something occurred to me when reading the post above. The MOU we signed with Britain... would this not cover situations like this, i. e. The British have done the legwork in terms of investigating boot upgrades, and instead of the British MOD ordering 200,000 pairs of cold temperate boots at unit cost X, they order 250,000 pairs at unit cost X, and the Irish DOD pick up the tab for the 50,000 pairs. Instead of the above situation where Irish taxpayers' hard earned moolah has been expended, reinventing the wheel. Just my 2c worth...
                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=3G_Gg6EB7oU

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by apod View Post
                        They do have a ePTFE lining. from what i have been told the problem is the Nubuck used for the upper as opposed to smooth full grain leather.
                        I have not been issued them myself ,and by all accounts it will be a while before I do but thats what is being said.
                        Its probably a case of the boots not being treated properly as well. Most personnel in the DF don't treat their operational boots properly - lash on the Kiwi, make em gleam and keep the major and the Lt Col Happy.

                        Alas, this isn't great for breathability and impedes the membrane to work properly. Ideally something like nikwax or the supplied tube of cream that came with the boot should work, but this doesn't create a great shine.

                        Just remember - theres nothing fundamentally wrong with nubuck and fabric combinations, its a compromise between strength, durability, price and weight and millions of pairs of similar boots are sold to hillwalkers every year. Ideally, the likes of nixwax nubuck and suede should be used for the purpose of treating said boots.

                        The other thing I'd say is that we love to crib. I guarantee you if we'd gone for the Nebraska pro (would be my preferred choice if picking from the haix range) all you'd hear is "waaah, to heavy, my Achilles hurts, we need go faster salomons" etc.

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                        • #57
                          I have a pair of Lowa GTX mids and I can't fault them. Got some of the treatment cream for them and haven't had an issue. They have nubuck bits but with a bit of a brush and a quick lash of the treatment they're ready to go. I suspect what you say is true, northie.
                          I knew a simple soldier boy.....
                          Who grinned at life in empty joy,
                          Slept soundly through the lonesome dark,
                          And whistled early with the lark.

                          In winter trenches, cowed and glum,
                          With crumps and lice and lack of rum,
                          He put a bullet through his brain.
                          And no one spoke of him again.

                          You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
                          Who cheer when soldier lads march by,
                          Sneak home and pray you'll never know
                          The hell where youth and laughter go.

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                          • #58
                            Its probably a case of the boots not being treated properly as well. Most personnel in the DF don't treat their operational boots properly - lash on the Kiwi, make em gleam and keep the major and the Lt Col Happy.
                            I concur.

                            Alas, this isn't great for breathability and impedes the membrane to work properly. Ideally something like nikwax or the supplied tube of cream that came with the boot should work, but this doesn't create a great shine.
                            Nikwax or any wax based product is just as bad on GTX boots as normal polish.I remember the first pair of boots I bought.Meindl island Pros.The rep from River Deep Mountain high told us to use Nikwax. Ruined them. I have gone through many different pairs of boots until I found the one that worked best for me.Lowa Combats. Never used anything other than the Haix cream on them. Not a single issue. Lowa do a cream also but it is clear and does nothing to hide scuffs etc.
                            The snag is that both products are speciality ones.Not readily available in most shops.Soldiers will use the cheapest,easiest to find stuff that keeps the BSM happy.So unless we have a supply of the Nubuck cleaner/conditioner available from stores the new boots are doomed from day one.
                            Just remember - theres nothing fundamentally wrong with nubuck and fabric combinations, its a compromise between strength, durability, price and weight and millions of pairs of similar boots are sold to hillwalkers every year. Ideally, the likes of nixwax nubuck and suede should be used for the purpose of treating said boots.
                            Hillwalkers.Not soldiers.
                            The other thing I'd say is that we love to crib. I guarantee you if we'd gone for the Nebraska pro (would be my preferred choice if picking from the haix range) all you'd hear is "waaah, to heavy, my Achilles hurts, we need go faster salomons" etc.
                            I would have gone for the Haix Nepals(aka the French army CdCCE boot). Slightly more expensive but a higher leg and Combat proven.

                            We still haven't dealt with the elephant in the room though.One pair of boots that is supposed to do you for EVERYTHING??? Jesus.Even when all we had were the old 24B's you got two pairs of 'em!
                            "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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                            • #59
                              Nubuck is good ..... until scuffed or covered in mud

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                              • #60
                                Love to know how they are fairing up in the Leb.
                                "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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