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  • Defence Forces Combat Clothing System

    MOD: New Thread to discuss the incoming DFCCS . ( Seeing as the proposed Soldier 2024 timeline is shot to hell). Ball on.

    Replying To the Last Post by Truck Driver in the Soldier 2024 Thread.

    Ok so here goes. First off you need to forget everything about the current Uniform and issue scale. The Proposed new system is broke down into four "Lines".

    1/ Baselayer. Both summer and winter versions. Male and Female Specific
    2/ Uniform Layer. Combat and Field/Bks versions. Male and Female specific.
    3/ Insulation Layer.
    4/ Shell/Weather layer.

    So WRT to the AR. I would go with something like this.

    Initial issue
    1/ Baselayer: 2x Summer sets. 2x Winter sets . 1x Midweight top.. Male /Female specific.
    2/ Uniform layer: 2x Field Dress Set. 1x Combat Dress.
    3/ Insulation Layer. 1 x whatever they go with.
    4/ Shell/Weather layer: 1x Waterproof suit. 1x Smock(if they retain this item)

    Second issue: On Succesful completion of 2-3 Star Course or after 1 Years Effective service
    1/ Baselayer: 1x Summer sets. 1x Winter sets . Male /Female specific.
    2/ Uniform layer: 1x Field Dress Set. 1x Combat Dress set. (Previous issued items replaced as required under FWT also)
    3/ Insulation Layer. If required on FWT
    4/ Shell/Weather layer: 1x Smock (if they retain this item)


    Field Dress= Field Dress Shirt/Trouser
    Combat Dress= Combat trouser/UBACS

    My understanding is that the Insulation layer maybe a Hybrid of a Softy type jacket and a Softshell. In ITMP so can be worn as an outer garment in Lieu of Barracks Jacket and as an undergarment in Lieu of the current Softy jacket.​

    with provision for at least one more without return on FWT
    While I get what you are trying to get at here FWT will never go away. The Issue scale is the Key. If you are only scaled for One Smock for example then you can only get one on initial issue and then replace one for one on FWT.

    If you are scaled for two than you should always have a good one and a "more used" one. Most AR I know are ignorant of the Current issue scale. For example under the current (2014) L3 you should be issued a Smock as part of your Initial issue. You are supposed to be issued a SECOND smock after 18 Months service. Not Hand the first one back to be issued the second. Two Smocks is what you are scaled for as a fully trained AR Soldier.

    If Units are not doing this RDFRA should be all over it.​
    Last edited by apod; 24 October 2023, 12:52.
    "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

  • #2
    While there are very very good reasons for going male/female specific and a larger range of sizes without the electronic 245B and digitising the ordering system between stores and OCES it is going to create huge issues (after the initial issue is done).

    The stores staff have a hard enough job to do but that is caused largely by the bureaucracy (that hasn’t move on a lot from the 1950s).


    Most AR I know are ignorant of the Current issue scale. For example under the current (2014) L3 you should be issued a Smock as part of your Initial issue. You are supposed to be issued a SECOND smock after 18 Months service. Not Hand the first one back to be issued the second. Two Smocks is what you are scaled for as a fully trained AR Soldier.
    you know as well as I do, to paraphrase L3, your entitled to “demand”…. Not entitled to be “issued”

    very very different things

    Comment


    • #3
      Anyway Rant over


      so I take from the above we are looking at the following basic items?:

      Summer baselayer
      Winter baselayer
      UBACS
      Midweight top
      Insulation jacket
      ”Field”/Bks Shirt
      Smock (possibly or something in lieu of it?)
      Wet suit


      ”Field”/Bks Trousers
      Combat Trousers


      Am I right?





      Comment


      • #4
        While there are very very good reasons for going male/female specific and a larger range of sizes without the electronic 245B and digitising the ordering system between stores and OCES it is going to create huge issues (after the initial issue is done).

        The stores staff have a hard enough job to do but that is caused largely by the bureaucracy (that hasn’t move on a lot from the 1950s).
        The Plan is that whoever gets the contract will look after Demand Management, Supply Management and order fulfilment. With the Civvies essentially taking over all those role expect a major shake up in the way Clothing is issued.


        you know as well as I do, to paraphrase L3, your entitled to “demand”…. Not entitled to be “issued”

        very very different things
        Preaching to the choir Buddy. But if you are entitled to demand and you are fobbed off than you have a genuine crib and can take that higher. People need to be confident and sure of the facts and then push the issue.



        "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by DeV View Post
          Anyway Rant over


          so I take from the above we are looking at the following basic items?:

          Summer baselayer
          Winter baselayer
          UBACS
          Midweight top
          Insulation jacket
          ”Field”/Bks Shirt
          Smock (possibly or something in lieu of it?)
          Wet suit
          Field”/Bks Trousers
          Combat Trousers

          Am I right?
          Something like that I reckon.

          "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by apod View Post

            Something like that I reckon.
            What you thinking of for mid layer?

            does it need to be usable as an outer if smock not used or would it be under UBACS ?

            Comment


            • #7
              The Demand Management type of system is allegedly better but its a very mixed bag, as it can be subject to the whims of the storespersons tasked with ordering and supplying it. Its theoretical design is that only those who are actually supposed to get a particular item of clothing, relevant to their job, get such an item. It's supposed to stop Qs doing the Old Pals act and making sure that their mates get first dibs or get access to the more desirable kit, at the expense of the real end users. It's also supposed to ensure that items that are meant to be returned to Stores to be destroyed or other wise disposed of, actually get there.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by apod View Post

                The Plan is that whoever gets the contract will look after Demand Management, Supply Management and order fulfilment. With the Civvies essentially taking over all those role expect a major shake up in the way Clothing is issued.



                Preaching to the choir Buddy. But if you are entitled to demand and you are fobbed off than you have a genuine crib and can take that higher. People need to be confident and sure of the facts and then push the issue.


                I'm reminded of a time in my old RDF unit soon after recruits had been issues with DPM, or whatever central stores decided to give them at least. It was around this time of year, all had boots, all had trousers. All had T shirts. Some had shirts. Some had jackets. Some had Jumpers (the old woolly jumper). There was no reason everyone should have got the initial issue, in our opinion, instead of this partial messy issue.
                The old CO had a plan. GOCs parade the following week, everyone MUST be in DPM outer layer, no exceptions. Us NCOs brought our spare smocks and shared them evenly among the recruits. For those who know me, I'm not a small lad. Our CO insisted that my Smock would look best on the smallest recruit. Similar sharing was done by the other "larger" NCOs in the unit. Main thing was we were all in DPM Outer. They looked ridiculous.
                Inspection was had, drill was perfect. Our parade area was adjacent to the main square, within sight of the Officers mess. Brig Gen snorted at the 5 foot tall female recruit wearing a smock for someone 5'10 with a 44 chest, that was just about reaching her knees. "chats" were had before parade was handed back, our old CO (legend) with a twinkle in his eye loudly enough for us to hear, apologised for the oversize items, but the weather was bad and he didn't want the recruits going home with pneumonia, so the NCOs shared what they had... some of the new lads are still waiting on kit, you know....
                Following week all missing items of kit arrived.
                For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by DeV View Post

                  What you thinking of for mid layer?

                  does it need to be usable as an outer if smock not used or would it be under UBACS ?
                  They may not even go for that item. Instead just get rid of the current Bks Jacket and Hollow Fibre (Softy) jacket and roll them into one Insulation layer.
                  IMHO a Lighter Mid layer shirt has merit. Not too warm that you can't wear it while active but just enough if worn under a field shirt in winter.

                  Mid layers are not supposed to be worn under UBACS. Worn instead of.
                  "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by apod View Post

                    They may not even go for that item. Instead just get rid of the current Bks Jacket and Hollow Fibre (Softy) jacket and roll them into one Insulation layer.
                    IMHO a Lighter Mid layer shirt has merit. Not too warm that you can't wear it while active but just enough if worn under a field shirt in winter.

                    Mid layers are not supposed to be worn under UBACS. Worn instead of.
                    Definitely room for something like a Norgie (as we used to buy in surplus stores, not the big massive issue one or the issue one that is a bit like a driflo) imho

                    but if they don’t go for a smock, what’s it’s the mid layer under? The insulation later?

                    does it need to be ITMP then (gives another outer option) or can a single (cheaper) colour be used ?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by apod View Post

                      The Plan is that whoever gets the contract will look after Demand Management, Supply Management and order fulfilment. With the Civvies essentially taking over all those role expect a major shake up in the way Clothing is issued.
                      Very interesting. So could be feasible for a reservist, say, to log onto an online portal, punch in their clothing request to the supplier, supplier pings request back to the unit OC for approval, and request is fulfilled. Removing clothing issue as a CQMS function completely as a result?
                      "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Truck Driver View Post

                        Very interesting. So could be feasible for a reservist, say, to log onto an online portal, punch in their clothing request to the supplier, supplier pings request back to the unit OC for approval, and request is fulfilled. Removing clothing issue as a CQMS function completely as a result?
                        I'd say there's plenty of Q's who are looking forward to this happening. Will this also remove clothing stores from Barracks I wonder?
                        What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ODIN View Post
                          Will this also remove clothing stores from Barracks I wonder?
                          Could well do. I remember some having a WTF moment a few years ago when it was announced that Amazon were taking over the clothing logistics for the US forces. If this goes through, will be a similar enough scenario

                          "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            It just means clothing stores can be put to use for something else. My last (uniform) job didn't have clothing stores either, we got all uniform direct from the manufacturer (Tailored Image). All we required was a liaison in our own logistics branch to make sure was was delivered was paid for and what was paid for was delivered. The alternative was keeping a large stock of a wide range of items in every possible size until the right person to fit them turned up. Just in time stock management may not work for everything in the military, but clothing is one exception.
                            For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                              It just means clothing stores can be put to use for something else. My last (uniform) job didn't have clothing stores either, we got all uniform direct from the manufacturer (Tailored Image). All we required was a liaison in our own logistics branch to make sure was was delivered was paid for and what was paid for was delivered. The alternative was keeping a large stock of a wide range of items in every possible size until the right person to fit them turned up. Just in time stock management may not work for everything in the military, but clothing is one exception.
                              How does the FWT part work?

                              Comment

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