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Ancient Antiquity (Irish Army of the 70s and early 80s)

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  • Ancient Antiquity (Irish Army of the 70s and early 80s)

    Its sounds like a fashion show , are there various shades of " face paint" issued as well, A touch of russet for the red heads, a little blusher for those with pale skins, i guess a bit of whitener for the darker skinned ( PC etc) I guess burnt cork is now totally out.Not approved by H&S etc

    MOD: Thread split from Soldier 2010 - Thread title not by BANDIT
    Last edited by Vickers; 8 May 2012, 11:42.

  • #2
    Originally posted by BANDIT View Post
    Its sounds like a fashion show , are there various shades of " face paint" issued as well, A touch of russet for the red heads, a little blusher for those with pale skins, i guess a bit of whitener for the darker skinned ( PC etc) I guess burnt cork is now totally out.Not approved by H&S etc
    Shhhhhs.Let the soldiers talk about what happening in the DF now.Now run along and pine for the FN.THERE THERE.
    "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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    • #3
      Try and get away from the mirror , All those in uniform well they may not necessarily be soldiers but i am sure u all look very pretty and macho , You can even add on another medal or two and a another gold brazzards so u look like a thoroughly modern major general .....Not taht it will make u any more effective ..
      Oh and I will will always pine for the FN , because I used it in action and appreciate it as a great weapon in the right hands of course
      and its already on its way back ,,

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      • #4
        "On its way back" as a spotters weapon ffs get a grip BANDIT Time travelling hasn't been invented yet. Do you have a problem with using vehicles instead of horses? Maybe we should go back to 1944 pattern webbing, come to think of it the FN is probably too modern for you.
        Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

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        • #5
          The FN represnts the ideal combination of modernity and traditional riflery . An excellent calibre, that is now being re examined in terms of i being more effective than the 5.56. But then again the rifle and calibre probably needs more training and a higher skill level then the current weapon requires. So reduce training needs and reduce effectiveness..
          I would not agree on 44 webbing too much blanco and brass but lots of good webbing around and it does not always have to be the most modern
          As regards horses it was not lonmg ago that they were used by SF in Afghanistan ,,Paki army use thousands of mules, and they have some combat experience ....... Its horses for courses

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          • #6
            Originally posted by BANDIT View Post
            The FN represnts the ideal combination of modernity and traditional riflery .
            What does that even mean?

            Originally posted by BANDIT View Post
            is now being re examined in terms of i being more effective than the 5.56.
            Can you provide any evidence of this re-examining?

            There's plenty of 7.62 semi auto's being used to support snipers who've moved beyond 7.62 weapons. There may be quite a few nations using a 7.62mm DMR in their squads but where has it replaced 5.56mm wholesale? More importantly who apart from third world militias, and PMCs still uses the FN as their main rifle? A tricked up spotters rifle is not the same as the FN you carried.

            I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a NATO country to change back to a 7.62 rifle.
            Everyone who's ever loved you was wrong.

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            • #7
              Don't stand there GAWPING, like you've never seen the hand of God BEFORE!!

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              • #8
                Lets look back on ancient antiquity(Irish Army of the seventies and early eighties).Soldiers in the army had the following.
                Weapons: FN Rifle.Fine weapon but totally unsuited to the tasks the DF carried out day to day IE CIT ,prisoners escorts etc.Too long for getting into and out of vehicles.Overpowered by the then NATO standard.Gustaf SMG: WW2 era weapon.Most dangerous weapon ever issued by the DF.For the user! Sniper rifle? What's that??

                Combat Uniform: Green overalls ,khaki shirts and ties or if you got lucky a combat suit that when it got wet stayed wet,weighed a ton and was designed more for inspections than field use.Handy.

                Boots:One type fits all and for all purposes.Wet feet?All the time lads.

                Helmet: Piss pot steel type that wouldn't stop feck all.Reassuring.

                Sleeping gear: Pool issued down sleeping bags that if soaked stayed soaked and weighed a ton..NUff said. Bivi bag to stay dry and get some sleep.What's that??

                Waterproof clothing: Sorry we don't issue that.Here's a poncho instead.

                Webbing: Canvas Korean war era crap that if it gets wet shrinks so you cant get your waterbottle out(Again,handy).Cant be decontaminated in the event of a CBRN attack(Dont worry about that though as you will be dead already as we don't have CBRN suits and our respirators our shite).

                Bergen: We don't issue them either.Here's a 58 Ptn combat handbag that cant hold any kit inside it.Why put your sleeping bag inside when it can go on top.And get soaked when the bin liner its in gets ripped.Hardy men

                Body armour: Don't worry about weapon rounds lads all DF soldiers are bulletproof so ye don't need it.Those of ye who aren't though can use the handfull of vietnam style "flakkers" that weigh a ton and give feck all protection.

                Public order kit: here's a stick and a crappy shield.Have fun lads.

                Radios: Only signallers need those.Here's more vietnam era kit that anybody with a scanner can listed to.Especially overseas on ops.Handy.

                Electronic counter measures to protect against road side bombs and IEDs: Are you from outerspace? whats an IED?

                Cam cream?: Nah lets use burnt cork.Dermatitis rocks and sure we wont miss the lads that go down with it.If it was good enough for the barbarian hordes it good enough for us!

                Yup.The Irish army back then was a real happenin place.Totally modern and up to speed with what other armies were using.And lets not forget that a good lot of our soldiers only joined to avoid a prison term and some are semi illeterate.Brilliant.Lets give them all contracts where they have no obligation to serve overseas or do any courses to enhance their skills and best of all they can serve till they are sixty as a Private!
                Woo hoo lets go back to that!
                "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Ah, but the mess opened during lunch!!

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by apod View Post
                    Lets look back on ancient antiquity(Irish Army of the seventies and early eighties)................................

                    Post of the week
                    Anyone need a spleen ?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      No not saying we should go back but instead look back objectively and examine antiquity and how the recent investment and changes in equipment and the other “cultural changes” has or has not improved its fighting capacity.
                      The army had the FN , one of the greatest rifles ever made that combined the traditional rifle design( not bullpup ) and a capacity to lay down a lot of accurate fire. Over powered ? cannot agree the same calibre is now being reconsidered as the short comings of the 5.56 become more evident. FN was ideally suitable for use in places like the border but also for other ATCP work. CIT only really commenced in 1978 . Anyway using the same logic as regards overpowered then perhaps the current rifle is also overpowered , so lets issue shotguns .
                      Yes it took some more training effort to become proficient but I cannot recall anyone in my platoon in the DF not being able to hit a man size target at 300yds . It should be noted that during my short time in the DF we did firing exercises on a regular basis , normal ranges , night firing with the trilite, Illumination rounds firing at 25 and 50 yds snap shooting. After leaving the DF I was involved in a conflict where the contact distance was often very close so more practice , practice so as shooting became almost instinctive, That is one of the differences between soldiers and civvys training . conditioning, training . etc.
                      While it is longer then the Steyr , the vehicles in use were land rovers with a few land cruisers pick ups . These may not have been as comfortable as the current family SUVs in use but were more soldier proof, more rugged, carried more kits, and allowed good situational awareness. I am sure a transport economist ;/ H&S experts will have lots of good reasons why the pick up was abandoned but from a soldiers viewpoint. Typical set up was driver and one guy in the front and two in in the back, no tailgate, quick and easy dismount etc. but I guess there was no where to plug in your ipod ( then again there were no ipods)
                      The MAG still one of the best LMG machine ever and was better than the M60 which the US used at that time.
                      Gustaf, tend to agree but was typical of 9mm sub machine guns at that time, Was renowned for its reliability . Interesting that it was popular choice of SF troop in Vietnam not many years before. Even as an NCO I preferred the rifle and often drew one rather than draw a Gustav , usually the Q staff obliged.
                      BAP. An excellent weapon ,but numerous good pistols around these days and not really such an important weapons anyway.. Question Now that the DF have a double action do they now carry one in the breach and if they don’t why bother with a double action?
                      AT, THE 84 GC . What a great weapon and still going strong , not sure if it is still on issue since the introduction of the AT4 but it was cheaper , a bit heavier and interesting that US army in Afghanistan are requesting for an increased scale of issue. Still used by US SF. So was the AT4 such a huge improvement in operational capacity?? Or is it just lighter.
                      Sniper Rifle, Selected FNs with scopes .
                      Mortars ; Mortars are mortars
                      Helmets ; Yes tin hats and similar to everything that was issued around the world at that time.
                      The '58 pattern was issued to the BA from the 1960's and in the DF from about 1976 . It was still being issued to British TA units in the late 1990's and similar rigs by other countries way into the 90s . My experience in the DF and similar rigs elsewhere was that the belt , yolk , pouches etc set up was an excellent way to distribute kit. Yes the pack was a bit sh… but then again one did not have to carry so much kit in those days.
                      Flak jackets yes they did not have the protection and as importantly the weight of what is used today . The idea was more to do with riots in the North. They were the standard issue of many armies at that time. The challenge for those who used them on a regular basis was how to keep your personal issue presentable .
                      Ponchos a great bit of kit at that time but problem was guys did not know how to use them. Modern materials are of course much better . Ponchos are still on issue in many European armies.
                      The 77 and 46 sets were modern at that time . The 77 was standard US issue introduced only in the late 60s … It had encryption facilities but these were not necessarily used by the DF. If memory serves me right there was an encryption facility on the 46 “ switch to Grey” The 203 set was useless.
                      CBRN Not considered a real threat at that time and lets be honest who really thinks that jumping into a charcoal lined suit will save yr bacon if the pooh hits the fan
                      The olive green combats; Nothing wrong with the colour.. Not as sexy looking as the DPM.. perhaps . Best thing to do to improve was to cut out the inside layer in the trousers and use tracksuit bottoms as liners. Woolly long johns should have been banned under the Geneva convention.
                      Khaki shirts ; all right but I never used the tie with the khaki shirt and combats .. There was an issue green shirt but needed a few washes to reduce the hairiness. Many guys purchased their own green round neck t shirts and used them with the woolly green scarves,
                      Boots ; Yes only one type and they did get wet and we managed, changed socks, etc a better pair of boots would have been welcome. How many different types are issued now and how much do they cost?
                      Sleeping bags , The type issued were ok for that time . modern materials have improved this entire area.
                      IED counter measures; Not considered a major threat in those days but can recall several incidents where command wires, primed bombs etc were discovered by DF patrols , such as at Narrow waters, Kileen border , both sites of successful IRA attacks years later. Also first EOR training and start of Special search teams initiated in the 1970s. ALSO
                      ARW INITIATED IN 1978,,
                      Public Order Kits. Perspex shields, wooden 3 Foot? batons, 38mm ?? Baton Rounds ( are they banned now) and CS/N gas .
                      Dermatitis ; No relationship with the use of burnt cork. but burnt cork . wood always available and cost nothing.. Yes and if it worked for the barbarian hordes but I guess it may dry out the skin and open liabilities for legal action.
                      Criminal Records.
                      I know of one guy in our company who had a criminal record . He was an excellent soldier and retired as an NCO. The idea that many joined to dodge a prison sentence is incorrect and besmirches the reputation of those who served at that period .. It is not acceptable. At that time bombs had exploded in Dublin and Monahan , British embassies burnt out in response to the murder of civilians and there were frequent incursion into the republic , SAS at flagstaff etc, the IRA blew up guards,( Portlaoise) had gunbattles on the border and they posed a direct threat to the state so people joined for many reasons and not necessarily just a job. In my Coy we had at least six ex BA , one FFL, a former US and a real mixture of guys who joined up.
                      One should recall that the 70s witnessed a major expansion of the DF to respond to a real internal ( IRA et all) and at times external (UDA, BA agents etc. ) threat to the state. I can recall a time in April 76 when both the 2nd and 5Th Batt , 2nd Motor , signals , Transport etc. ( basically the regular elements of the 2nd brigade were all on standby armed , fully kitted out , snipers teams etc. to respond to what was then considered by many as a potential coup when the then government banned the Easter rising parade. Could 2000 +++ troops today be so prepared. Similarly it was not unusual to do 4 no. 24 hour duties in a week and sometimes being hauled out of bed on rest off to respond to an incident , search etc. on the border. The Coy of which I was a member had a policy of two platoons on duty each week with the other two training ,, and available when required. Barrack guards were done by HQ company..
                      As regards overseas duty only recommenced in1978 , there was an usually an over demand for overseas duty .
                      Yes conditions were different in those days , ame right across society. How many homes had central heating, indoor toilets, colour TVs etc in the 1970s. Turf fires , toilets in Gormo where the Sh-- flowed down from one stall to the next , sleeping on the gym floor in Cootehill and yes generally lousy barracks for the non commissioned personnel. . Yes these should have improved and I am pleased that they have.
                      As regards equipment it has improved but one should not confuse the availability of the most modern equipment and kit with the effectiveness of an armed unit. There is simply no substitute for hard, trained and motivated soldiers. The apparent over emphasis on political correctness, H&s and the inclusion of women has in my opinion lowered that capacity. The DF has a long way to go but simply buying kit for modernity sake and reducing standards will not work. Just look at the minimum fitness standards that need to be reached now .. They are simply to low .. Yes standards were not set in the 70S but fitness levels were dependent on units and ours with one or two exceptions were fit.
                      But speaking of equipment, is it not ironic that the Aer Corps had with their fougas in 1975 had more capacity to intercept the civvy airline than what it currently has.. The navy seems to have definitely improved and we should put more resources in this part of the DF.
                      So no lets not go back to the 70S but lets not think that giving the PDF or RDF fancy gear will automatically improve their capacity when there is an archaic officer corps, a too high officer men ratio , no defense policy , no combat experience and even questions over the raison d etre of the Army.
                      It’s a slow day

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Bandit you really are disloyal aren't you?
                        How many years did you serve in the DF and what gives you the right to piss all over the standards,efforts and training of those in the modern DF?
                        Their is nothing wrong with the motivation ,training or "hardness" of the soldiers in todays DF. Todays soldier is better trained ,educated(inside and outside the DF)and is held to higher standards both professionally and morally than any previous generation.
                        Society has changed and the misogynistic ways of 70's don't merit consideration in todays DF.Our equipment is better,much better than ever before and adds to our capabilites,not subtracts from them.A comfortable soldier is also an effective soldier as his mind is focused on his job.Not his discomfort
                        So.Sorry your pining for the old days holds no water.All soldiers say they had it harder than the ones who came after.That's accepted.However your constant running down of the DF and those in it is a disgrace.You say you were one of us? Then show some loyalty to the organisation and stop pissing all over those of us who are still serving just for your kicks.Troll.
                        "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          In the days of Alexander, old soldiers complained that young soldiers had it too easy.

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                          • #14
                            Take a fresh out of training 3 Star Private from the 70's and another from 2010 and onwards and see who the more proficient and better trained soldier is.

                            I'll give you a clue, he wasn't trained in the 70's.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Because I take the time to answer your long monologue or your attack on the 70s DF I am trolling . or I do not agree with all that is ongoing in the DF I am disloyal? My service was honorable and I have a discahrge paper to prove it, I have also experience from elsewhere to compare ..
                              While I am sure that there are many good motivated people in the DF , ( including my close family ) the system , political, civil service and military self interest need a radical shake up if there is going to be real institutional change. Its got nothing to do with the individual soldier it’s the system
                              This over emphasis on the acquisition of the guicci gear a lot of it expensive will never paper over the real cracks and weaknesses that are there and that will continue to be there until there is reform or reform is forced on it if it has to go into combat.
                              As I said the 70s were a time of change for the DF. The government, Dept of Defence and DF were still in WW2 mode , when the troubles commenced and today they are still probably in we are the “Irish peace keepers mode” So is the DF ready for a combat deployment anywhere , can it deploy a full batt within 24 hrs anywhere in the country tomorrow, Doubtful.. Not the soldiers fault, it’s the system..
                              As regards misogynistic no not the case just do not think as do many other armies that women should be rifle persons etc. or that standards should not be lowered or adjusted for the sake of inclusiveness.
                              As regards 70s recruits V todays , better trained ?? better educated ?? Not entirely sure if this is the case. Better soldiers how would this be judged,, Neither had to actually engage in combat and that is the test,,

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