Thanks Thanks:  0
Likes Likes:  0
Dislikes Dislikes:  0
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 26
  1. #1
    C/S
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    6,720
    Post Thanks / Like

    Effective camouflage..

    Hi all
    The most effective camouflage I ever saw was on a British Army Gazelle helicopter, in the Don, one fine day. I was approaching it from the rear and it appeared to be all-black. Naturally, I was curious, wondering who'd brought the all-black Gazelle in to the Don.Bear in mind that a civvie black Gazelle was flying around Ireland at the time(early 90s). It wasn't until I got closer and changed the angle of my approach that I saw that it was a standard green-and-black AAC Gazelle. All the black portions of the colour scheme lined up, directly ahead or aft.**** me, sez I, that's a great scheme, virtually invisible in poor light, so it was. So it proved when I saw several Gazelles at low level around the Border area. The sods were invisible, especially at low level and poor light (dusk) until it was to late for the observer.Which lead me to wonder about all the other green-and-black colours on the British Army's gear. Subsequently, I learned that green is the last colour that that the human eye loses perception of, as light fades. Also, our climate means that our countryside is effectively green and black with the odd bit of brown and occasional yellow or earth shades thrown in. So, the question is, is the plain and simple green-and-black the best camo there is?
    Apart from all that, another example of great camo was, when on a visit to Dublin Air Traffic Control Tower, the radar controller pointed out an RAF Nimrod flying along the 12-mile limit, which is also the airspace boundary, give or take, between the UK and Ireland. He then handed me the binocs to see if I could spot it.It was a hot Summer's day, hazy enough, so I looked out to sea, aiming at the Kish lighthouse. Sure enough, there was a Nimrod, down at low-level, cruising along, virtually invisible with it's hemp camouflage.Only for the sun reflecting off it's windscreen, it would have been impossible to spot.
    I thought, those Brits are sharp men when it comes to the camo.
    Any comments?
    regards
    GttC

  2. #2
    My tank is bigger... California Tanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    San Francisco, CA, USA
    Posts
    1,934
    Post Thanks / Like
    The Brits took to painting their training aircraft black. After experimentation, they realised that that was the easiest colour airplane to spot. Makes sense, I guess.

    In the 1980s, the USAF did some paint experimentation with two F-16s. They called them the Charcoal Lizards.

    http://members.fortunecity.com/joeflow/f16_5.jpg



    The experiment was not deemed successful. At distances greater than 1km, you couldn't tell the difference between that and a standard grey F-16. For a swing fighter, it was deemed more beneficial to keep them grey.

    That said, the Mudhens (F-15Es) are green, so presumably for an aircraft that in theory will never be in a hostile environment at altitude, green still has its advantages.

    NTM
    Last edited by California Tanker; 3rd January 2007 at 16:47.
    Driver, tracks, troops.... Drive and adjust!!

  3. #3
    Lieutenant X-RayOne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    dublin
    Posts
    1,330
    Post Thanks / Like
    the bluish colour scheme on the CASAs works pretty well over seas, especially crappy grey dirty days.
    The people of England have been led in Mesopotamia into a trap from which it will be hard to escape with dignity and honour. They have been tricked into it by a steady withholding of information. The Baghdad communiqués are belated, insincere, incomplete.....It is a disgrace to our imperial record, and may soon be too inflamed for any ordinary cure.We are to-day not far from a disaster.

    T.E. Lawrence, 2 Aug 1920.

  4. #4
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    13,714
    Post Thanks / Like
    Have to garee with GTTc..saw some nimrods operating during my time at sea..and they were almost invisible..and very quiet at night while operating on only two engines.

    Very help ful in lighting up trawlers from time to time....lol......it happened!
    Time for another break I think......

  5. #5
    Beard On T.I.M.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    purgetory
    Posts
    1,526
    Post Thanks / Like
    would someone mind explaining how exactly the ACU is suppose to work? cause it doesnt unless your laying down on a mangy 70's couch?
    Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil...prayer, fasting, good works and so on. Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun. Eat leaden death, demon...

    http://www.iamawesome.com/

  6. #6
    C/S
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Dublin
    Posts
    3,319
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
    virtually invisible with it's hemp camouflage.
    Interesting. The hemp was said to be for camouflaging against concrete runways / hardstands. That is until they redone Kinloss in asphalt.

    http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=57.64...9444,-3.560556
    Last edited by Victor; 2nd January 2007 at 15:53.

  7. #7
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    East
    Posts
    22,090
    Post Thanks / Like
    How effective the camouflage scheme of an aircraft depends on, whether you are looking at it from above against the ground (Sahara desert, sea, the Glen), looking up at it from the ground (with/without a backdrop of land) etc etc.

  8. #8
    My tank is bigger... California Tanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    San Francisco, CA, USA
    Posts
    1,934
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by T.I.M. View Post
    would someone mind explaining how exactly the ACU is suppose to work? cause it doesnt unless your laying down on a mangy 70's couch?
    In theory, it's supposed to combine with the naturally produced shadows caused by the cover that you're hiding in/under/behind, which is then mottled by the digitising to disrupt the silhouette. In reality, however, it's not as effective as plain green.

    In practise, it's kindof irrelevant as the US doesn't spend much of its time today fighting in green pastures. Towns and deserts is where it's at, and a chap in ACUs will be harder to spot in a city than a chap in DPMs. See that wonderful quote in "A Bridge Too Far" where Johnny Frost is ringing the doorbell. "You know, something just occurred to me. We're wearing the wrong camoflauge. All very well in the country, but it's hardly going to fool anyone in the city, is it?"

    NTM
    Driver, tracks, troops.... Drive and adjust!!

  9. #9
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Dublin
    Posts
    14,534
    Post Thanks / Like
    do you trust it Cal

    did you wear it during your time in Iraq
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  10. #10
    C/S flash bang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    320
    Post Thanks / Like
    fair point , but i do think that marpat is far superior and comes in two flavours . the best urban camo i ever saw was the "t block pattern" used by the usmc it was experimental and was not adopted
    :confused: ONCE YOU HAVE THEM BY THE BALLS , THEN YOU CAN WIN THEIR HEARTS AND MINDS ! :

  11. #11
    My tank is bigger... California Tanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    San Francisco, CA, USA
    Posts
    1,934
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by hedgehog View Post
    do you trust it Cal

    did you wear it during your time in Iraq
    Wasn't out yet.

    Personally, I think the dis-effect is overstated. If you're relying on the colour of your uniform as your primary means of concealment, I think you've got other problems.

    NTM
    Driver, tracks, troops.... Drive and adjust!!

  12. #12
    C/S flash bang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    320
    Post Thanks / Like
    if thats the case the brits should go back to wearing red coats....but i do think the acu camo does work better in a desert enviroment it seems to work well in urban situations and as we know future warfare seems be played out in a fibua setting. but the usa should have kept a temperate bdu
    :confused: ONCE YOU HAVE THEM BY THE BALLS , THEN YOU CAN WIN THEIR HEARTS AND MINDS ! :

  13. #13
    2/Lt Bosco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Tipperary
    Posts
    1,649
    Post Thanks / Like
    On the camo thing all I can say was what I was told from an ex RAF type, he said that they really werent to worried about what was ontop of the A/C looking down rather what was on the bottom for the cheeky bugger with his shoulder mounted SAM on the ground looking up.
    The best camflague that he said they had was a set of lights on the body of the A/C which were linked to some sort of a resistor when varied in accordance with the Sunlight i.e. at dusk the lights would match the surrounding light conditions to a tee and make the A/C for all intents and purposes invisable to the naked eye.
    Dont know how revelvant this would be to heli's as this guy flew fast jets but I would assume that there would be similar principles involved.
    Again dont know if this was ever implemented as I've never heard of it since. Probably too expensive on both cost and weight.
    Lifes a bitch, so be her pimp!

  14. #14
    C/S flash bang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    320
    Post Thanks / Like
    www.roggenwolf.comcheck out this site for interesting digital camo designs
    :confused: ONCE YOU HAVE THEM BY THE BALLS , THEN YOU CAN WIN THEIR HEARTS AND MINDS ! :

  15. #15
    My tank is bigger... California Tanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    San Francisco, CA, USA
    Posts
    1,934
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by flash bang View Post
    if thats the case the brits should go back to wearing red coats....but i do think the acu camo does work better in a desert enviroment it seems to work well in urban situations and as we know future warfare seems be played out in a fibua setting. but the usa should have kept a temperate bdu
    I agree that there is something to be said for having a green BDU, though it does lead to an interesting problem when fighting in urbanised green areas like Europe: The more grey colours will still fit in better in the cities, towns and villages than the green ones will, the question then becomes how much mounted vs dismounted fighting is there in modern warfare in the city vs in the country. We train primarily for the countryside fighting, though that may just be a factor of not having any cities to train in. This is presumably even more so the case when fighting the Americans: I think most people have learned by now that fighting them in the open country is a losing proposition, and so will be more inclined to engage in urban terrain.

    The red coat comment is a bit facaetious. I don't meant to imply that personal camouflage is irrelevant, just that you can accept some compromise without it being too much of a liability.

    Probably too expensive on both cost and weight.
    Probably also doesn't work too well in real-world conditions. Just because the sensor is receiving direct sunlight from blue skies straight above doesn't mean that Ivan the anti-aircraft-artilleryman looking at an oblique angle at a chopper just above the horizon doesn't see this bright spot against the dark stormclouds a few miles thataway.

    NTM
    Last edited by California Tanker; 3rd January 2007 at 16:47.
    Driver, tracks, troops.... Drive and adjust!!

  16. #16
    C/S flash bang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    320
    Post Thanks / Like
    sorry cal humour seems to be in short supply these days
    :confused: ONCE YOU HAVE THEM BY THE BALLS , THEN YOU CAN WIN THEIR HEARTS AND MINDS ! :

  17. #17
    C/S
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    6,720
    Post Thanks / Like
    Hi all.
    Very interesting comments offered here.Personally, I believe that one soon becomes coated with enough dirt and dust, especially in the urban environment,to make the base colour of your uniform ineffective as camouflage. It doesn't take long to make a pristine uniform look like a wino's..as for aircraft colours, the PC-9s are bloody hard to spot in any kind of haze.You can hear them for miles but they are very hard to spot.
    regards
    GttC

  18. #18
    Corporal irishrgr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Texas, USA
    Posts
    215
    Post Thanks / Like

    Acu

    The ACU Pattern is officially called ARPAT (Army Pattern) as opposed to MARPAT (Marine pattern, etc). We got issued them before our last trip and got mixed reviews. They are comfy enough to wear although we went through them faster than the old DCU's. Many of our lads out in the desert switched back to the DCU's as they felt the DCU blended in better. In the Afghan desert, the ACU sometimes got a weird blue hue to it. (I'll try and dig up pictures). A lad I was talking to who just returned from the Phillipines said they went back to woodland BDU's in the jungle as the ACU seemed to light coloured to them.

    I understand it's a compromise uniform (woods, desert, urban) which means it'll be "OK" in every environment but not perfect. I think the Maries have the right idea with greens and dessie's.

    On a completely unrelated note, I may be in Dublin in Feb, so if that happens, I'll post it up here and be willing to meet and trade off badges, etc if any one's interested.

    Cheers,

    A

  19. #19
    6-40509-04014-7 yooklid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Right behind you.....
    Posts
    2,921
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by irishrgr View Post
    On a completely unrelated note, I may be in Dublin in Feb, so if that happens, I'll post it up here and be willing to meet and trade off badges, etc if any one's interested.
    Screw badges - people should be giving you beer.
    Meh.

  20. #20
    Beard On T.I.M.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    purgetory
    Posts
    1,526
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by irishrgr View Post
    On a completely unrelated note, I may be in Dublin in Feb, so if that happens, I'll post it up here and be willing to meet and trade off badges, etc if any one's interested.



    A
    i think ill have to have a gander so...
    Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil...prayer, fasting, good works and so on. Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun. Eat leaden death, demon...

    http://www.iamawesome.com/

  21. #21
    Private 2*
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    any and all of the worlds black spots.
    Posts
    46
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by yooklid View Post
    Screw badges - people should be giving you beer.
    GET A ROOM YOU TWO.................
    Irishman serving in Her Majesty's Splendid Armed Forces, seeking fame and fortune and bringing light to the dark places of the World.

  22. #22
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Dublin
    Posts
    14,534
    Post Thanks / Like
    I'll post it up here and be willing to meet and trade off badges, etc if any one's interested.
    I am sure you meant to say

    Trade Beer
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  23. #23
    CQMS fiannoglach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    425
    Post Thanks / Like
    I have a badge but I don't think I want to trade it. Its brown and star shaped, but I'll give you a look...................... after beer........OSOK

  24. #24
    6-40509-04014-7 yooklid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Right behind you.....
    Posts
    2,921
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by super_soldier View Post
    GET A ROOM YOU TWO.................
    Methinks the lady doth protest too much...
    Meh.

  25. #25
    Corporal irishrgr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Texas, USA
    Posts
    215
    Post Thanks / Like

    link up

    Well I don't know whether to be flattered or scared with the badge discussion.......exactly what kind of place are you running here mods???????? LOL. I'm always up for a few bevvies though......badge trading hmmmmm, now you've got me wondering though!!!!!!! Will keep you posted lads.

    On a camoflague note, most of our vehicles were painted tan for the trip. Now we are home, the Army will not paint them green again as it's too expensive and the current paint job is considered "serviceable" as it is only a year old. So now when we train in the woods, we have tan trucks, etc. Only in the Army............

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •