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Cessna Replacement - The Options

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  • #16
    What about the Defender:

    Sensor options - Radar, FLIR, ESM, laser range finder
    Defensive aids suite option
    EFIS
    Parachuting capable - 10 plus jump master
    Sliding door
    Low maintainance
    Low airframe price
    Service life - 25+ years
    Commonality with GASU aircraft - training & maintainance
    Option for wing hardpoints for fuel tanks / weapons / sensors
    Long range (>1000 nm) and high endurance (up to 8 hours)
    Multi-role (surveillance, environmental monitoring, air ambulance, flight checker, survey, target towing, parachuting, martime surveillance
    High wing to aid observation
    Designed for low level operation in all weather
    Good turning capability
    Low stall speed (50 knots)
    Crew & passengers (up to 10)
    STOL capable (350m on unprepared strips)
    In use with 35 airforces worldwide (including Belgium, Cyprus, Hong Kong, India, Israel, Philippines and UAE)

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    • #17
      options...

      Originally posted by Aidan View Post
      The suggestion that immediately appeals to me would be to purchase 4 PC-6 Turbo Porters in a reasonable spec. Well proven airframe and not overly expensive to run and maintain, if a little low on capacity. Good endurance though, and they would be deployable abroad as observation/liason aircraft with very good rough field abilities. Then, in good time(4-6 years later), make an investment in the transport area proper, with 2 aircraft in the CN-295/C-27J sector.
      Any idea of the price of a Turbo Porter?

      As for transport aircraft like the CN-295 and C-27J, what exactly would they be used for? Wouldn't they cost around €30 million each? What I mean is, where would they fly to, how often, what would they carry? We don't need that kind of air transport capability within the country, and they're not really suitable for flying to Liberia or East Timor or wherever....

      Has the CASA C-212 ever been considered as a light transport aircraft? It's a cheap, rugged, STOL aircraft, and you could buy two of them for the cost of an AW139 - just the job for parachuting!

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      • #18
        more info. on CASA C-212

        Some further info. on the CASA C-212



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        • #19
          Originally posted by pym View Post

          Silly question number 2: would the PC-9's be of any use in observations roles abroad? I read recently (alas on Wikipedia) that the USAF was looking into the possibility of using their model as Forward Air Controllers


          .
          The Australians use their's in a FAC role, and in Angola the PC-7 was more feared then the hind helicopters by the rebels in COIN roles....just sayin
          Dr. Venture: Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, we get waylaid by jackassery?

          Dr. Venture: Dean, you smell like a whore

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          • #20
            Originally posted by DeV View Post
            The role of airborne support for escorts is not just observation (more important jobs than that while it is up there - that is operational info so will not be discussed.

            snip....

            Helicopters generally do not have the required endurance and loitering capability (it would be too expensive) for the airborne escort role.
            rather general, societal question....

            why on earth does Irish CIT need defence forces support?

            trying very hard indeed to think of any other western country that provides a military ground and air escort for cash vans. and i can't.

            i can understand it, almost, in the bad old days of PIRA, but now?

            a little 'make work' perhaps?

            and as for the uber-secret role of air escorts, come on. it can do two things, observe and report or it can intervene. and seeing how folk were wetting themselves about the great advance of an IAC helicopter actually firing a GMPG while airborn then its somewhat unlikely that in the event of something happening to the CIT that said Cessna would shout 'tally-ho!', dive from the sun and loose off a few AGM-65 Maverick missiles and scatter the debris with Cluster Bombs.

            a little more humility about what really is OPSEC and what is big-timing to make a mundane and unneccesary tasking sound like a thunder-run to Baghdad would do this place the world of good.

            Comment


            • #21
              This is the last word I'll allow on the subject of CIT, points will be handed out if people keep bringing it up.

              Originally posted by ropebag View Post
              rather general, societal question....

              why on earth does Irish CIT need defence forces support?.
              Because the security companies, Gardaí & Defence Forces all think it's necessary in certain circumstances. When security professionals say it's necessary it's a good enough reason.

              Originally posted by ropebag View Post
              trying very hard indeed to think of any other western country that provides a military ground and air escort for cash vans. and i can't.
              Can you think of another western country that had unarmed police & security companies and a problem with terrorists who had a history of armed robbery?

              Originally posted by ropebag View Post
              i can understand it, almost, in the bad old days of PIRA, but now?
              It was brought in because of the IRA, and given the increasing brazenness of armed criminal gangs it continues.

              Originally posted by ropebag View Post
              a little 'make work' perhaps?
              The AC has enough to be doing & does not need to make work for itself.

              Originally posted by ropebag View Post
              and as for the uber-secret role of air escorts, come on. it can do two things, observe and report or it can intervene. and seeing how folk were wetting themselves about the great advance of an IAC helicopter actually firing a GPMG while airborne then its somewhat unlikely that in the event of something happening to the CIT that said Cessna would shout 'tally-ho!', dive from the sun and loose off a few AGM-65 Maverick missiles and scatter the debris with Cluster Bombs.
              Firstly I don't know where you got the impression that the posters were suggesting that this would happened, given that they all know that the Cessna is unarmed and it's impossible for it to intervene directly.

              The article on the Cessnas in the the Dec-Jan issue of An Cosantóir says that it's role is to provide observation, signals support & to co-ordinate any response to an attack. That's as much as the DF has said about the subject & that's all that will appear on this board.

              Originally posted by ropebag View Post
              a little more humility about what really is OPSEC and what is big-timing to make a mundane and unneccessary tasking sound like a thunder-run to Baghdad would do this place the world of good.
              If you don't like the board you can always leave. No-one bar yourself has made any fantastical posts on the subject, they've merely stuck to the board's rules & DF regulations and the discussion hasn't suffered any as a result.
              Last edited by FMolloy; 12 April 2007, 12:38.
              "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

              Comment


              • #22
                costs

                As far as I can find out, these are very roughly the costs of some of the possible Cessna replacements mentioned so far....


                aircraft approx. unit cost (€)
                Cessna 172 200,000
                Cessna Turbo Stationair 400,000
                Cessna Caravan 1.2 to 1.5 million
                Pilatus PC-6 Turbo Porter 1.2 million?
                Britten-Norman Defender 6.5 million
                Casa C-212 6 million
                Agusta-Westland AW139 12 million+
                Last edited by thebig C; 14 April 2007, 00:33.

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                • #23
                  air support

                  The role of the Cessnas in relation to cash escorts is "to provide observation, signals support & to co-ordinate any response to an attack." Should similar air support not be available when troops are engaged in other operational activities, which mainly take place overseas? Which would be better for that purpose, fixed-wing or helicopter?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    hi there
                    The PC-6 is only built to special order and you can guess how much that costs! The Defender/Islander is only built at a very low volume and mostly to special order. i dont know if the 212 is still in production.
                    regards
                    GttC

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      As far i know the Pilatrus PC-6 turbo Porter is still the favourite in IAC/Army circles for the needs that has been be specified from what i have heard. One of the criteria i have heard being mention alot is that they wont a truely military aircraft instead of civilain one like some mentioned previous they wont an aircraft capable of soft field landing with good STOL and capable of increased Para Operations to go in tandem with the Army plans to increase it operational/ capibility in this area,transportation needs,ATCP commitents and assitance to state agencies.

                      The PC-6 is favourite because of the good relationship that has been built over PC-9M purchase and the service provided etc... and the PC-6 track record internationally at military level deployed in domestic security enviroment or in greenfield sites. Thats information i have heard anyways about the subject.

                      BMax.
                      British officer: You're seven minutes late, Mr. Collins.
                      Michael Collins: You've kept us waiting 700 years. You can have your seven minutes.

                      [As the British flag comes down]

                      Michael Collins: So that's what all the bother was about.

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                      • #26
                        Rough Field performance is a must. Though the Islands may have runways, Its easier to get something designed for rough field into a smooth runway in rough weather.


                        Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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                        • #27
                          alive and well..

                          Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                          hi there
                          The PC-6 is only built to special order and you can guess how much that costs! The Defender/Islander is only built at a very low volume and mostly to special order. i dont know if the 212 is still in production.
                          regards
                          GttC
                          Seems like the C-212 is still going strong. Latest version is the C-212-400.
                          (http://www.eads-nv.com/xml/content/O.../50/434505.pdf)
                          "Brazil orders 50 C-212 transports from EADS Casa, to replace Bandeirantes

                          The Brazilian air force (FAB) has confirmed that it is to place an order for 50 EADS Casa C-212-400s transport and surveillance aircraft in a deal that includes the establishment of a local production site.

                          The Spanish arm of EADS clinched the deal, worth an estimated $260 million, by slashing the price of the aircraft from $8 million per unit to $5.2 million..."

                          (www.flightglobal.com, 23 Aug. 2006)

                          I mentioned the C212 more as an alternative to the Defender, CN-235 and C-295, which had been proposed earlier in this thread, than as a direct Cessna replacement. Also because more AW139 helicopters had also been proposed. Seems to me the C-212 is much better value for money.

                          However if a direct Cessna replacement is all that's required, then the PC-6 looks good, although as you say, it might be very expensive. Cheapest option of all would just be a few new Cessnas. Was there some mention elsewhere of an Air Corps policy favouring twin-engined aircraft? Or was that just helicopters? BTW, do the Air Corps only buy new aircraft these days? Could be some good second-hand deals out there.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by carrington View Post
                            The role of the Cessnas in relation to cash escorts is "to provide observation, signals support & to co-ordinate any response to an attack." Should similar air support not be available when troops are engaged in other operational activities, which mainly take place overseas? Which would be better for that purpose, fixed-wing or helicopter?
                            Similiar air support is available overseas, supplied by other members of whatever multinational force Ireland is contributing to. Ireland does not operate overseas alone, nor is it ever likely to, so the need for the DF to supply it's own air cover is not that pressing.

                            I'd say the proposed UAVs would be most likely to fill this role overseas.
                            "The dolphins were monkeys that didn't like the land, walked back to the water, went back from the sand."

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Hi carrington,
                              The Don does buy second-hand, when it suits the purpose (that is, the bean-counters won't put out for a new one).Personally,I'd go for a -212, if they can get them for what the Brazilians paid....this thing about commonality of PT-6 engines in the Don is often a myth.The PT-6A-41 of the King Air is a Stone-Age relic of the 60s compared to the PT-6 of the PC-9s.They could probably only share a few gaskets and oil seals and a few minor parts. An awful lot of the Don fleet is characterised by a complete lack of interchangability at even the most basic level (seats can't be swopped, radios can't be swopped,etc). For a small fleet, it has far too many individual types. This was addressed in previous studies but nothing, apart from better commonality among helicopters, has been done.
                              regards
                              GttC

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                News i heard on this subject the other day is that the PC-6 is ruled out of replacing the current cessnas 172s because of its bad safety record.

                                The IAC is going to procure two twin engine aircraft similiar in appearance to Cessna Caravan, I was told so I dont know what this will be anyone have any ideas?

                                BMax.
                                Last edited by The Blue Max; 25 April 2007, 23:24.
                                British officer: You're seven minutes late, Mr. Collins.
                                Michael Collins: You've kept us waiting 700 years. You can have your seven minutes.

                                [As the British flag comes down]

                                Michael Collins: So that's what all the bother was about.

                                Comment

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