Potential Officers Course (CFR)

[DeV]

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Yes they do.

As to whether it is a waste, that surely depends on your views of education and professional development

Don’t get me wrong 3rd level qualifications aren’t a waste. I have 3 and gained relevant employment from same.

But at a time when newly commissioned officers lack military experience, there aren’t enough officers in appointments in units, etc etc would they not be better off in their units ?

If the course is relevant and required by the DF, that is obviously necessary and a different kettle of fish.

>60% of school leavers currently go to 3rd Level.

There are great benefits to the DF and Officer/student

[Fantasia]

It is a subject for a different thread I think

[Chuck]

A few observations if I may.

CFR courses are to be welcomed. Not annually but certainly periodically, 3 years seems a fair compromise. There is definitely benefits and some pitfalls. The expertise many of the NCOs bring to the officer ranks is to be welcomed and utilised. Some (and I mean a minority percentage) struggle with the daily grind as an officer in some units. The new found expectation of having to routinely stay after NWH without the guarantee of a DIL ruffles more than some feathers. I have had one even infer to me that they regretted taking the commission because of the additional workload. Have many CFR officers worked in SPB out of interest? Everyone is different of course, but just some food for thought.

The standard of officers produced by the cadet school, particularly in the last 2-3 classes has decreased for various reasons. The large numbers now mean that you might get 10-15 very good officers, 30 or so average, and the remainder very poor. Given the cream generally tend to go to Cavalry, CIS, Arty etc its no surprise that the "not so good" officers end up in infantry battalions. The increased demands for personnel has meant that the standard of applicant has decreased. This isnt just for officer ranks either. The calibre of some of the individuals passing out after recruit is frightening. I guess that's what happens when the bar is allowed to lower so much. And of course, if you are a female, there appears to be no standards at all. Fail the fitness test? No problem, sign the attestation form and we will worry about that small matter later.

As for USAC. USAC is even a bigger waste of money then the reserve in my opinion, this is not a dig but my honest opinion. I am heavily in favor of further education and continued professional development but sending some some 19 year old off to college to study arts for 3-4 years offers the army very little. The sooner it is eradicated and all officers are commissioned a 2/Lt the better.

Lastly, as for the graduate/non-graduate debate. I have first hand experience of graduate officers who I would not trust with a weapon. Officers with degrees and masters who I wonder how they tie their laces on a daily basis. On the other hand, I have come across some school leavers who are excellent and outperform and buy and sell peers several class senior. Of course, the opposite is true also for both sets of entrants. My point is, having a degree does not make you a better officer. There are numerous ways to complete degrees through the DF without going missing for 4 years.

[ropebag]

Sending your most enthusiastic officers offto be students for 3 years instead of putting them in the job they've joined and trained for - commanding soldiers - is the dumbest, most self-defeating idea in all of Christendom.

Oh, I forgot...

[hptmurphy]

The standard of officers produced by the cadet school, particularly in the last 2-3 classes has decreased for various reasons.

Based on what evidence?

And of course, if you are a female, there appears to be no standards at all. Fail the fitness test? No problem, sign the attestation form and we will worry about that small matter later.

Again evidence please ?

Lastly, as for the graduate/non-graduate debate. I have first hand experience of graduate officers who I would not trust with a weapon. Officers with degrees and masters who I wonder how they tie their laces on a daily basis. On the other hand, I have come across some school leavers who are excellent and outperform and buy and sell peers several class senior.

So how can this be if they all go through the same system with the same qualifying criteria.

Now I have no doubt that you are spot on in your observations, but these are the same things that have been offered about officers since God was a boy, and while every effort to update the standards and practices , because there is human involvement failure is always a reality.

[Chuck]

Based on what evidence?



Again evidence please ?



So how can this be if they all go through the same system with the same qualifying criteria.

Now I have no doubt that you are spot on in your observations, but these are the same things that have been offered about officers since God was a boy, and while every effort to update the standards and practices , because there is human involvement failure is always a reality.

You know I cannot provide you with evidence, just as there is no evidence to the contrary.

What you have quoted above is my own opinion, it is not a 'fact' as such but I didn't expect I needed to explain that.

All I can say is that this is my experience having seen what has come through the system. The sample size is based on well over 10 years of cadet classes and interactions with said officers in various environments.

My last point refers to the fact that *IMO* USAC is an incredible waste of time and resources.

[hptmurphy]

You know I cannot provide you with evidence, just as there is no evidence to the contrary.

What you have quoted above is my own opinion, it is not a 'fact' as such but I didn't expect I needed to explain that.

All I can say is that this is my experience having seen what has come through the system. The sample size is based on well over 10 years of cadet classes and interactions with said officers in various environments.

My last point refers to the fact that *IMO* USAC is an incredible waste of time and resources.

As I said I neither agree or disagree with any point you make, my point being unless its official and proven based on evidence , nothing changes.

We could all highlight examples of what you describe.... we had some real doozies in the NS but there was a secondary filter after cadet school and that was watch keeping exams, didn't pass that, your career went sideways, didn't mean that all who had were bright sparks but it tended to thin out the real thickos.

Yes, education is great and it should be equal access across the ranks, CFRs great stuff if you can get the right applicants with the right enhancements, but in a high degree of cases we have a history of promoting the wrong people for the wrong reasons and then because they have not gone through the 'school' they tend to be treated by lepers by their brother officers.

Are leaders born and not made being the obvious question?

[Bravo20]

then because they have not gone through the 'school' they tend to be treated by lepers by their brother officers.

That is beginning to change and the more often a CFR course is run the more that attitude will change.

[Fantasia]

I have heard this notion of "not treated as equals" before.

I can tell you that it is untrue.

If the newly commissioned officer doesn't make the transition themselves such as going for coffee with their old mates every day instead of associating with their new peers, carries a chip on their shoulder due to some percieved difference / grievance etc then they will not integrate as easily as others.

Those that integrate themselves easier are fully accepted and usually more is thought of them as they come with a lot of practical experiences that a 2/Lt wouldnt have.

Out of the CFR courses commissioned after I was, I can only think of 1 guy that people think of as "different" and that is because they treat themselves as different.

I think the the o/ranks are more likely to think of the CFR as different, for reasons good, bad and indifferent

[Bravo20]

I agree and any I have come across bring a hell of a lot to the organisation and often become the go to person for higher ups as they know shit will get done.

However I have heard heard a few comments from a couple of junior officers in the past along the lines of "Who does he think he is? He is only a jumped up cpl/sgt/CS". But that said more about the inadequacies of said junior officer.

[Chuck]

I have heard this notion of "not treated as equals" before.

I can tell you that it is untrue.

If the newly commissioned officer doesn't make the transition themselves such as going for coffee with their old mates every day instead of associating with their new peers, carries a chip on their shoulder due to some percieved difference / grievance etc then they will not integrate as easily as others.

Those that integrate themselves easier are fully accepted and usually more is thought of them as they come with a lot of practical experiences that a 2/Lt wouldnt have.

Out of the CFR courses commissioned after I was, I can only think of 1 guy that people think of as "different" and that is because they treat themselves as different.

I think the the o/ranks are more likely to think of the CFR as different, for reasons good, bad and indifferent

I have to agree.

I can honestly say that I have never heard of experienced a CFR officer being excluded from any officer group because they didn't do a cadetship.

As mentioned above, once everyone makes the effort, its a non issue. If someone is carrying a chip well that is their problem. If you are willing to put in a shift, help others and not be an obstructionist, there are rarely problems.

[golden rivet]

best idea is to get privates /ab,s on a cadetship maybe after 3 years service ,, some great guys are in their prime at this stage and well settled in military life..forget cfr courses for guys with high rank as most get very little job satisfaction after a while....a lot of ((well in)) have got this and have not been the best example...

[DeV]

best idea is to get privates /ab,s on a cadetship maybe after 3 years service ,, some great guys are in their prime at this stage and well settled in military life..forget cfr courses for guys with high rank as most get very little job satisfaction after a while....a lot of ((well in)) have got this and have not been the best example...

There’s a place for both

[na grohmiti]

There should be something in between Senior NCO rank and officer.
Someone who demonstrates actual leadership ability, but with the practical effectiveness of a senior NCO. Many armies have Warrant officer rank for this purpose. (Not to be confused with the Naval Warrant officer, who is in effect a Sgt Major). They are senior to a senior NCO, but junior to a Lieutenant JG.

A young Corporal with proven leadership abilities and aptitude for management positions should be encouraged to enter the Cadet school, instead of CFR.
A Sergeant or above, with similar abilities, but of more advanced age would be wasted wearing 2 pips. There should be something in between for this person, with appropriate specialised appointments relevant to role.

[Fantasia]

There should be something in between Senior NCO rank and officer.
Someone who demonstrates actual leadership ability, but with the practical effectiveness of a senior NCO. Many armies have Warrant officer rank for this purpose. (Not to be confused with the Naval Warrant officer, who is in effect a Sgt Major). They are senior to a senior NCO, but junior to a Lieutenant JG.

A young Corporal with proven leadership abilities and aptitude for management positions should be encouraged to enter the Cadet school, instead of CFR.
A Sergeant or above, with similar abilities, but of more advanced age would be wasted wearing 2 pips. There should be something in between for this person, with appropriate specialised appointments relevant to role.

The Warrant Officer you describe fits neither of the 2 main ones that spring to mind. The US model has WOs as specialists that are on a suitable pay scale, they provide leadership but are often DE roles.

The UK WOs are more akin to our SNCOs.

The Finns have WOs that kind of fit the model you talk about but they tend to use them more for specialists like nurses, commops, logisticians etc from my experience but even the Finns do not understand the Finnish rank and promotion structure.

[DeV]

A young Corporal with proven leadership abilities and aptitude for management positions should be encouraged to enter the Cadet school, instead of CFR.
A Sergeant or above, with similar abilities, but of more advanced age would be wasted wearing 2 pips. There should be something in between for this person, with appropriate specialised appointments relevant to role.

Corporals can and do (if eligible for a cadetship)

If I had a choice between a 15 month cadetship starting everything from scratch followed by courses which are included in Pot Offrs Cse at a later date.

Or the approx 45 week course..... no brainer

[hptmurphy]

I can honestly say that I have never heard of experienced a CFR officer being excluded from any officer group because they didn't do a cadetship.

Maybe its a thing of the past, but I certainly know of a couple both army and NS who were indeed treated as outsiders, Direct entries in the Navy tended to be treated with some scorn by both the enlisted and commissioned based on the assumption they were real sailors as they hadn't gone through the same shit as everyone else.

I think the the o/ranks are more likely to think of the CFR as different, for reasons good, bad and indifferent

It will depend on how the individual acted in his former life and how he acts in his new life. Again I know of some great guys who made the change..and some who shouldn't never.

A relative of my wifes recently was commissioned having been enlisted in a battalion for a few years... he is going to be a good officer because he was a good private. He went through the school but is a switched on youngfella with set goals. Lets hope the army manage to hang on to him for a while as too many of the good fellas get bored after a few years and leave.

best idea is to get privates /ab,s on a cadetship maybe after 3 years service ,, some great guys are in their prime at this stage and well settled in military life..forget cfr courses for guys with high rank as most get very little job satisfaction after a while....a lot of ((well in)) have got this and have not been the best example..

.

Spot on and I reckon we could name the same names. The good guys could nearly be earmarked as recruits!

[Flamingo]

If commissioned having previously served with a unit, does the new officer go back to that same unit?

[Fantasia]

If commissioned having previously served with a unit, does the new officer go back to that same unit?

Ordinarily no, but the Defence Forces has allowed some to do so recently.