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  • #91
    Junior Minister stated in the Seanad this evening, 2 new courses in 2021 and 2024

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    • #92
      Originally posted by DeV View Post
      Junior Minister stated in the Seanad this evening, 2 new courses in 2021 and 2024
      Said to Mr Protac last week that further PO Courses were on the radar. Didn't believe me then....
      "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

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      • #93
        The 2021 course has been known about for some time.

        They are a great retention initiative, keeping excellent NCOs in the DF that might otherwise leave. The NCOs that get commissioned generally become excellent officers as they have a lot of experience that the other YOs don't have. They free up SNCO appointments in many cases, offering career paths for other excellent NCOs that might not have happened otherwise.

        My only concern with running 3 courses in 6 years is that in many cases you will be drawing from the same pool, so someone that was miles off the mark in 2018, might be a front runner in 2024 without their standard improving.

        As for the Protac guy's opinion - I was unaware that he had a role in our HR policies, I thought he just sold over priced rubbish?

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        • #94
          Originally posted by Fantasia View Post
          My only concern with running 3 courses in 6 years is that in many cases you will be drawing from the same pool, so someone that was miles off the mark in 2018, might be a front runner in 2024 without their standard improving.
          The same could have been said when the increased the cadet class size to over 100.

          CFR should be a regular, recognised and encouraged route to being an officer. To do that you need to have regular scheduled potential officers courses. So starting to run them every 3 years as opposed to every decade is a good start.

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          • #95
            Originally posted by Fantasia View Post
            The 2021 course has been known about for some time.

            They are a great retention initiative, keeping excellent NCOs in the DF that might otherwise leave. The NCOs that get commissioned generally become excellent officers as they have a lot of experience that the other YOs don't have. They free up SNCO appointments in many cases, offering career paths for other excellent NCOs that might not have happened otherwise.

            My only concern with running 3 courses in 6 years is that in many cases you will be drawing from the same pool, so someone that was miles off the mark in 2018, might be a front runner in 2024 without their standard improving.

            As for the Protac guy's opinion - I was unaware that he had a role in our HR policies, I thought he just sold over priced rubbish?
            Definitely positive for all. Especially when you look at some of the stuff that came up in the climate surveys interviews etc.

            But then you’d have some who would be ineligible and newly eligible personnel coming through

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            • #96
              Originally posted by Bravo20 View Post
              The same could have been said when the increased the cadet class size to over 100.

              CFR should be a regular, recognised and encouraged route to being an officer. To do that you need to have regular scheduled potential officers courses. So starting to run them every 3 years as opposed to every decade is a good start.
              Have you seen the standard produced by the Cadet School over the last few years? The only thing giving me any hope is that they dont hang around for too long!

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              • #97
                Originally posted by Fantasia View Post
                Have you seen the standard produced by the Cadet School over the last few years? The only thing giving me any hope is that they dont hang around for too long!
                Thankfully no But I have heard the reports

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                • #98
                  Do the non-graduates (Cadets) still do USAC?


                  Surely that is a waste of limited resources

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by DeV View Post
                    Do the non-graduates (Cadets) still do USAC?


                    Surely that is a waste of limited resources
                    Yes they do.

                    As to whether it is a waste, that surely depends on your views of education and professional development

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Fantasia View Post
                      Have you seen the standard produced by the Cadet School over the last few years? The only thing giving me any hope is that they dont hang around for too long!
                      Originally posted by Bravo20 View Post
                      Thankfully no But I have heard the reports
                      Jaysus....
                      "Well, stone me! We've had cocaine, bribery and Arsenal scoring two goals at home. But just when you thought there were truly no surprises left in football, Vinnie Jones turns out to be an international player!" (Jimmy Greaves)!"

                      Comment



                      • Originally posted by Fantasia View Post
                        Yes they do.

                        As to whether it is a waste, that surely depends on your views of education and professional development
                        Don’t get me wrong 3rd level qualifications aren’t a waste. I have 3 and gained relevant employment from same.

                        But at a time when newly commissioned officers lack military experience, there aren’t enough officers in appointments in units, etc etc would they not be better off in their units ?

                        If the course is relevant and required by the DF, that is obviously necessary and a different kettle of fish.

                        >60% of school leavers currently go to 3rd Level.

                        There are great benefits to the DF and Officer/student
                        Last edited by DeV; 10 July 2019, 16:23.

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                        • It is a subject for a different thread I think

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                          • A few observations if I may.

                            CFR courses are to be welcomed. Not annually but certainly periodically, 3 years seems a fair compromise. There is definitely benefits and some pitfalls. The expertise many of the NCOs bring to the officer ranks is to be welcomed and utilised. Some (and I mean a minority percentage) struggle with the daily grind as an officer in some units. The new found expectation of having to routinely stay after NWH without the guarantee of a DIL ruffles more than some feathers. I have had one even infer to me that they regretted taking the commission because of the additional workload. Have many CFR officers worked in SPB out of interest? Everyone is different of course, but just some food for thought.

                            The standard of officers produced by the cadet school, particularly in the last 2-3 classes has decreased for various reasons. The large numbers now mean that you might get 10-15 very good officers, 30 or so average, and the remainder very poor. Given the cream generally tend to go to Cavalry, CIS, Arty etc its no surprise that the "not so good" officers end up in infantry battalions. The increased demands for personnel has meant that the standard of applicant has decreased. This isnt just for officer ranks either. The calibre of some of the individuals passing out after recruit is frightening. I guess that's what happens when the bar is allowed to lower so much. And of course, if you are a female, there appears to be no standards at all. Fail the fitness test? No problem, sign the attestation form and we will worry about that small matter later.

                            As for USAC. USAC is even a bigger waste of money then the reserve in my opinion, this is not a dig but my honest opinion. I am heavily in favor of further education and continued professional development but sending some some 19 year old off to college to study arts for 3-4 years offers the army very little. The sooner it is eradicated and all officers are commissioned a 2/Lt the better.

                            Lastly, as for the graduate/non-graduate debate. I have first hand experience of graduate officers who I would not trust with a weapon. Officers with degrees and masters who I wonder how they tie their laces on a daily basis. On the other hand, I have come across some school leavers who are excellent and outperform and buy and sell peers several class senior. Of course, the opposite is true also for both sets of entrants. My point is, having a degree does not make you a better officer. There are numerous ways to complete degrees through the DF without going missing for 4 years.
                            Last edited by Chuck; 10 July 2019, 16:56.

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                            • Sending your most enthusiastic officers offto be students for 3 years instead of putting them in the job they've joined and trained for - commanding soldiers - is the dumbest, most self-defeating idea in all of Christendom.

                              Oh, I forgot...

                              Comment


                              • The standard of officers produced by the cadet school, particularly in the last 2-3 classes has decreased for various reasons.
                                Based on what evidence?

                                And of course, if you are a female, there appears to be no standards at all. Fail the fitness test? No problem, sign the attestation form and we will worry about that small matter later.
                                Again evidence please ?

                                Lastly, as for the graduate/non-graduate debate. I have first hand experience of graduate officers who I would not trust with a weapon. Officers with degrees and masters who I wonder how they tie their laces on a daily basis. On the other hand, I have come across some school leavers who are excellent and outperform and buy and sell peers several class senior.
                                So how can this be if they all go through the same system with the same qualifying criteria.

                                Now I have no doubt that you are spot on in your observations, but these are the same things that have been offered about officers since God was a boy, and while every effort to update the standards and practices , because there is human involvement failure is always a reality.
                                Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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