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  • #16
    Naval Establishments

    Originally posted by DeV View Post
    Duty of care is everyone responsibility

    Do you seriously think that the NS didn't get input into the ECF or CS4?
    That is true, about duty of care, the greater responsibility lies with the provider of your assets whether crew, spare parts, etc. As regards CS4, the outline from The Croke Park Agreement actioned changes would be required to CS4. There was no equivocation, just a bit of decimation, and provide your own executioner. It was an expedient exercise based on cost and numbers.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by DeV View Post

      Do you seriously think that the NS didn't get input into the ECF or CS4?
      No they did not.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
        In the last 12 months more than a dozen Junior Officers have left the Naval Service. That is almost enough watchkeepers for 4 ships. I don't recall this level of loss in past times. Five senior officers also departed in the same timescale. What's the problem?
        Money. Better to be had in civvy street. I hear of a few junior officers who went to a german supermarket chain to start on 60k + Company car.
        Morale seems poor amongst junior officers too, with a number of poor officers holding senior positions, blocking others from doing anything positive or beneficial to the service, and trying to stomp on those who try to rise above.
        It comes down to how much you love your job, over how nice you would like your quality of life to be.
        For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
          That is true, about duty of care, the greater responsibility lies with the provider of your assets whether crew, spare parts, etc. As regards CS4, the outline from The Croke Park Agreement actioned changes would be required to CS4. There was no equivocation, just a bit of decimation, and provide your own executioner. It was an expedient exercise based on cost and numbers.
          Just browsing through my copy of the Report on Remuneration and Conditions of Service in the Defence Forces 31st July 1990. At that time the Establishment of the Defence Forces was 17978 all ranks with a strength of 13233 or 74% of Establishment. 18 years later we are operating a reduced Force of 9700 approx. but in the Navy's case with less than 1000 personnel, we are operating almost twice as many ships with twice as many reliefs, drydockings, leaves, and additional specialist training. we are on our way to a grinding halt or an operability factor of not more than 50%.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
            Just browsing through my copy of the Report on Remuneration and Conditions of Service in the Defence Forces 31st July 1990. At that time the Establishment of the Defence Forces was 17978 all ranks with a strength of 13233 or 74% of Establishment. 18 years later we are operating a reduced Force of 9700 approx. but in the Navy's case with less than 1000 personnel, we are operating almost twice as many ships with twice as many reliefs, drydockings, leaves, and additional specialist training. we are on our way to a grinding halt or an operability factor of not more than 50%.
            Despite the fruit withering on the vine, the DOD+ are willing to see our modern Navy come to a halt by too many controls and exigency measures which cut off retention and recruitment. Rumor has it that extending service of trained NCO's and men was/has been restricted creating a turnover of losses and weakening in-house expertise. The only solution is , where suitable , ALL personnel should be allowed sign on up to pension age and recruitment should be continuous with permanent training cadres. The current situation may leave sophisticated equipment un-used and ships less capable or NOT at sea.

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            • #21
              You mean pre 1994s haven’t been allowed to extend?

              If that is true it’s absolutely stupidity

              Is the Gleeson Report available online? I’ve been unable to find it

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              • #22
                Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                Just browsing through my copy of the Report on Remuneration and Conditions of Service in the Defence Forces 31st July 1990. At that time the Establishment of the Defence Forces was 17978 all ranks with a strength of 13233 or 74% of Establishment. 18 years later we are operating a reduced Force of 9700 approx. but in the Navy's case with less than 1000 personnel, we are operating almost twice as many ships with twice as many reliefs, drydockings, leaves, and additional specialist training. we are on our way to a grinding halt or an operability factor of not more than 50%.
                Correct me if I’m wrong but the establishment of nearly 18,000 was never even got close to, the max strength was about 14,000

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by DeV View Post
                  Correct me if I’m wrong but the establishment of nearly 18,000 was never even got close to, the max strength was about 14,000
                  I think that's what he said in his comment

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Auldsod View Post
                    I think that's what he said in his comment
                    In the 12 months since my last, a recruiting drive was held in a Global pandemic ,with obvious results . The DoD and DoF must be pleased to be able to shift the blame on to Mr. Ping.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by ancientmariner View Post
                      In the 12 months since my last, a recruiting drive was held in a Global pandemic ,with obvious results . The DoD and DoF must be pleased to be able to shift the blame on to Mr. Ping.
                      I see the forecasts made in this thread are coming to pass with less than 50% of our ships able to take up operational duties. Often manning the pumps in negative buoyancy can be a waste of time. Let's hope money can fix it.

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                      • #26
                        The present FOCNS must be praised for putting people first, and sticking to his guns in spite of what must have been immense pressure from Government, given that the last minister with responsibility for defence effectively called him a liar.
                        Many more would have put their promotion prospects first and toed the government line, no matter what.
                        2 classes of 50 recruits a year won't plug the leak though. More DE competitions are the only answer in the short term, but you will only attract qualified mariners away from civvy street if you offer something better than what they already have. CIL are recruiting for ABs and maintenance at present. Their prospective recruits will come from the same pool as those the NS are trying to retain.
                        Last edited by na grohmiti; 21 October 2020, 11:23.
                        For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                          The present FOCNS must be praised for putting people first, and sticking to his guns in spite of what must have been imennse pressure from Government, given that the last minister with responsibility for defence effectively called him a liar.
                          Many more would have put their promotion prospects first and toed the government line, no matter what.
                          2 classes of 50 recruits a year won't plug the leak though. More DE competitions are the only answer in the short term, but you will only attract qualified mariners away from civvy street if you offer something better than what they already have. CIL are recruiting for ABs and maintenance at present. Their prospective recruits will come from the same pool as those the NS are trying to retain.
                          And GOCAC

                          I’ve said it before DoD and Government will not listen until COS says sorry we don’t have the resources.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by DeV View Post
                            And GOCAC

                            I’ve said it before DoD and Government will not listen until COS says sorry we don’t have the resources.
                            In 1970's the Government were quite happy to allow the Naval Service to be reduced to NO sea going vessels. There can be no sense of responsibility in a Department that doesn't have the pulse of the organisation it is running. Fifty years later we have separated all uniformed units from the Minister and the Department heads. Every country in Europe and further afield are increasing the capability of it's Services . We had a Pandemic Budget with little or no discussion on Defence or matters related. The habit has been to tie Defence expenditure to some expedient such as Fishing or Brexit, never to sovereignty or current treats.

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                            • #29
                              At the beginning of this crisis, the then Taoiseach (who also forgot he was minister for defence) said in the dail that the need for a military transport aircraft was a matter of priority, he left it to the CoS. Pilatus offered us 2 more PC12NG, the DoD said we didn't have the parking space for 2, so we only got one. Thanks very much says the minister, the Air Corps got their transport aircraft, we can all pat ourselves on the back.
                              That's what you are dealing with.
                              For now, everything hangs on implementation of the CoDF report.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by na grohmiti View Post
                                At the beginning of this crisis, the then Taoiseach (who also forgot he was minister for defence) said in the dail that the need for a military transport aircraft was a matter of priority, he left it to the CoS. Pilatus offered us 2 more PC12NG, the DoD said we didn't have the parking space for 2, so we only got one. Thanks very much says the minister, the Air Corps got their transport aircraft, we can all pat ourselves on the back.
                                That's what you are dealing with.
                                They got one all spruced up in shiny silver. There were three more parked near my daughter's house in Denver Colorado since 2019 and they have been flown in to make a Fleet of 4 Aircraft. They have been busy, including trips to Africa with or recovering personnel. Proper use of an Air Force.

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