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  1. #1
    Teuton Foot Soldier ZULU's Avatar
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    Daysack / webbing / Armour - Are we getting overloaded?

    I have a gripe with the increasing trend to have to wear daysacks. All well and good for carrying reserve ammo and equipment etc but to be told to keep them on during a section in attack is a bit crazy. What happened to momentum, speed, manuverability? You're just lugging extra weight that your not going to get access to during the battle!!?

    Dont even want to start on how behind the reality we are with regards to our load carrying equipment
    "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

  2. #2
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Any Cadet School exercise I've ever heard of/seen pictures of they wear Reduced CEMO on the assault.

  3. #3
    CQMS fiannoglach's Avatar
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    I agree. It's ridiculous. All that extra crap should be dumped with the Pln Sgt and the BCR's, leaving the sections to do their thing. Look at what we have to carry - Lid/CBA/CEFO, ammo, grenades, reserve ammo, SRAAW, MAG ammo, Breach kits and ladders if urban. No mention of food, water, or 3rd line yet!

  4. #4
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    And what is the Sergeant going to do with two sections worth of daysacks?? How is he going to casevac while looking after all that.

    Daysacks should absolutely be kept on for attacks. You need the kit in them while advancing to contact, for the reorgs after a battle and so on. Webbing can't hold all the stuff you need.

  5. #5
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    Hi there
    Section in attack fighting order should be limited to belt order only, with a sack/daysack/sandbag for the carriage of grenades/spare GPMG rounds.Mobility is the key to survival and winning the firefight.There are countless examples in warfare of men fighting with belt order or less.I thought the whole CEMO rig was designed to be quickly dumped for action. Perhaps it's time for a rethink on the whole concept of what a man carries on his belt/back for firefights.
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  6. #6
    Sergeant Major Thorpe's Avatar
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    All a rifleman should have for a section in attack, is water and slaughter. If you get hit up with your cemo on, ditch it on the spot and collect it later or get it back loaded. This idea of carrying the kitchen sink in the day sack is a new thing but itreally needs to be rethaught out.
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  7. #7
    Cut backs luchi's Avatar
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    Well although I agree with you all about the day sack what about body armour? Its heavey and restricts movement. It may possibly save your life by protecting vital organs but that may not be any use if the enemy is more agile and blows your head off.

    Maybe (and I speculate here) the idea of insisting on the continual wearing of day sacks is to prepare for the bay when body armour must be worn??
    Last edited by luchi; 1st August 2007 at 16:24.
    Without supplies no army is brave.

    —Frederick the Great,

    Instructions to his Generals, 1747

  8. #8
    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fiannoglach View Post
    I agree. It's ridiculous. All that extra crap should be dumped with the Pln Sgt and the BCR's, leaving the sections to do their thing. Look at what we have to carry - Lid/CBA/CEFO, ammo, grenades, reserve ammo, SRAAW, MAG ammo, Breach kits and ladders if urban. No mention of food, water, or 3rd line yet!
    That is what you use your daysack to carry.

    Reduced CEMO is the same as wearing CEFO plus Daysack, you just replace the pack made from the rocket pouches with something a bit more comfortable. All that extra ammo etc don't fit in your belt kit.

    Sleeping system, rations spare water, clothes etc gets put in your Bergin which should in no way be confused with a daysack.

    Those of you who have had to carry the full ordinance and equipment allocation for a platoon know how much space it takes.

  9. #9
    CQMS fiannoglach's Avatar
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    Forgive me if I didn't make myself clearer. I meant it was dumped with the Pln Sgt at the Pln RV, Section does their attack and collects their daysacks when they move into reserve.

  10. #10
    CQMS fiannoglach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo20 View Post
    Those of you who have had to carry the full ordinance and equipment allocation for a platoon know how much space it takes.
    True, but that doesn't mean that you have to carry it into the assault with you.

  11. #11
    Teuton Foot Soldier ZULU's Avatar
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    Look at what we have to carry - Lid/CBA/CEFO, ammo, grenades, reserve ammo, SRAAW, MAG ammo, Breach kits and ladders if urban.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bravo20 View Post
    All that extra ammo etc don't fit in your belt kit.

    Those of you who have had to carry the full ordinance and equipment allocation for a platoon know how much space it takes.
    I'm talking section level attack (Not FIBUA)

    Main ammo, grenades, SRAAW,Breach kits all fit in CEFO. Some people (And I was guilty of this till recently) need to get rid of the unneccaasary shite in the webbing. The only other things you need are a canteen of water and a cleaning kit.

    But the thinking trend now is that you need to bring all this extra shite like NVE, Reserve ammo, MAG ammo, shovels etc in a daysack with you during the assault. BOLLOX
    "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

  12. #12
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    What happens if they get cut off - lack of food, enough water, ammo etc?

  13. #13
    Lieutenant X-RayOne's Avatar
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    good points zulu....i agree people generally carry too much gear in both their CEFO and daysacks.

    all the ammo, water and essentials you need (and i mean ESSENTIALS with maybe just a boil in the bag too) can easily fit in CEFO. most of the weight comes from the ammo itself.

    i do think there is a tendency to carry daysacks that are too big. and soldiers being soldiers, if there is space they will fill it! usually with "just in case" stuff. the sort of stuff that doesn't actually get used much...or in reality should be in their backpack!

    as regards to wearing helmets and CBA...well, get used to it. its mandatory on some PDF courses and obviously overseas so we should be training as we would fight. its comfy doing section in attacks in boonie hats but not realistic. training, both PT and tactics, should be gearing people towards the real scenarios. no use running in runners before tactics...people should be running with weight and boots to get used to section in attack like conditions.
    Fate whispers to the warrior, "There is a storm coming"

    And the warrior whispers back "I am the storm".

  14. #14
    Teuton Foot Soldier ZULU's Avatar
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    I have no problem wearing the Lid and Armour X-RayOne, its the unneccasary weight and reduced mobility that is being forced upon us.

    Dev - They're not going to get cut off. We're talking section assault on a bunker/MG position. Soldiers are going to either die or kill. Food is the last thing they will want or have time to use.

    Using cover, me and my other assault element keep on getting stuck by obstacles catching in these bloddy daysacks, filled with stuff we don't need and will never have access to in the heat of an assault. It really does not take sense to see that you should drop them, take the position, and then collect them again.
    "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

  15. #15
    Lower than a snakes balls Duffman's Avatar
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    I dont see the logic in everyone in the section wearing daysacks. Definitely not the assault groups. Speed and momentum are key here for most involved. But I've always thought a day sack for the 2 FSG and 2i/c would be handy allowing them to carry that little bit of extra ammo and kit that is particular to their roles. They mightn't appreciate it when they have to hoof it up for the re-org but maneuverability at this stage mightn't be as important.
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  16. #16
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Every soldier should carry an axe lest he need to break down a door.....


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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  18. #17
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    This is the start of the overloading of troops ...

    Blackhawk Down (as in the book) was supposed to be a raid over in an hour.

    I think the whole thing has pros & cons. It is an unwise soldier (as I've learnt from experience) that gets separated from his/her kit.

  19. #18
    CQMS fiannoglach's Avatar
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    I don't think it's a good idea to be so specific in focussing on classic SIA. Carriage of eqpt needs to be looked at whether its urban, rural or whatever. I do think all mission essential needs to be carried, just not on the actual assault. If anybody should know about being prepared for every eventuality, its us!

  20. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by fiannoglach View Post
    I don't think it's a good idea to be so specific in focussing on classic SIA. Carriage of eqpt needs to be looked at whether its urban, rural or whatever. I do think all mission essential needs to be carried, just not on the actual assault. If anybody should know about being prepared for every eventuality, its us!

    Do you think the army is addressing this issue with the new battle vests and day sacks that are going to be on issues shorty?

  21. #20
    CQMS fiannoglach's Avatar
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    Haven't seen the actual items IA, so can't comment on those. But given that our likely employment is PSO and probably MOWAG based, the concept might not be bad. Interesting to see what they come up with.

  22. #21
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Heres a few things to consider.Doing sia or pia on say a few hours tactical ex and then returning to camp is when i could agree about ditching daysacks etc.A coy or bn level advance to contact which can last 24-48hrs or more is a different thing.In that scenario you leave your bergan with the q trucks and you dont see it again until you get to your next basecamp.In this case you need a datysack as you cant carry wetgear,24 rations ,reserve ammo,extra water or cbrn kit if required in cefo .As part of a large adv to contact your section may get to do one proper sia out of a full company before you move to reserve.The coy comdr is not gonna slow his advance so you can run back to collect your daysacks if you drop em.Yes if the reserve section doesnt mind humping an extra daysack up to the position you have just gone firm on when they move up with the pln sgt then fine.But not allways practical.

    Interesting that the brits use a single rocket with cefo as an "assault" order.All that is carried in the rocket is reserve ammo.No comfort items are allowed!

    I believe that with the advent of the combat vest it will force us to prioritise what we carry in our fighting order.Bullets and water.basic first aid kit.Basic cleaning kit(pullthrough,oil,flannellette),p.r.r,and command kit for leaders.Nothing else and then only if mission specific.The tendency now is to fit umpteen pouches and then try to fill em.WHY????

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  24. #22
    Teuton Foot Soldier ZULU's Avatar
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    I believe that with the advent of the combat vest it will force us to prioritise what we carry in our fighting order.Bullets and water.basic first aid kit.Basic cleaning kit(pullthrough,oil,flannellette),p.r.r,and command kit for leaders.Nothing else and then only if mission specific
    Should this not be the case now even with the PLCE?

    ( Whoever invented that system must have been stoned - Need grenade/smoke/etc, where do I have to reach? - Behind me!! Not to mention the thing weights twice as much as it needs to be)
    .In this case you need a daysack as you cant carry wetgear,24 rations ,reserve ammo,extra water or cbrn kit if required in cefo
    But the raingear/rations/ reserve ammo/ extra water (CBRN kit should be on if there was a need for it) are in no way needed in an assault. All they serve to do is slow down the wearer and exhaust them right before they need to be at top momentum
    Last edited by ZULU; 1st August 2007 at 22:40.
    "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

  25. #23
    Closed Account Docman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZULU View Post
    But the raingear/rations/ reserve ammo/ extra water (CBRN kit should be on if there was a need for it) are in no way needed in an assault. All they serve to do is slow down the wearer and exhaust them right before they need to be at top momentum
    From my experiences, selected people in the Platoon needed to carry daysacks, mostly for Ammo but also for the odd ordnance item that you would get issued. Soon after seeing a Pl Sgt running around loaded down with sandbags of ammo, the decision was made to have a few people carrying daysacks - usually the Sgt, runner, signaller (for the radios) and 2 or 3 people in each section (Usually FSG). We made it a rule that nothing but ammo was to be carried in the daysacks and it worked out well. When you are carrying 1st Line issue of ammo (& more) with grenades, etc, it really makes a difference. We usually carried it belted or in mags for quick use - daysacks made this easy.

    Also, having a daysack of ammo made it easy for the Sgt to get ammo to the Firebase section - get close and swing a daysack of ammo to them.

  26. #24
    jang-a-lang turbocalves's Avatar
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    something i tend to do is have the manouvre group (excluding pof and flank security) leave daysacks with the fsg ,seeing they usually contain extra fsg ammo water etc, and the assualt group need to be fast,

    pof and flank sec dont need to be so fast and agile so keeping their daysacks also means extra ammo close to the assault gp if needed,

    but as i'm in an arty unit i dont get to do i alot of section in attack and nearly no pl in attacks so how it would work in a constant situation is anyones guess,
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  27. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbocalves View Post
    something i tend to do is have the manouvre group (excluding pof and flank security) leave daysacks with the fsg ,seeing they usually contain extra fsg ammo water etc, and the assualt group need to be fast,

    pof and flank sec dont need to be so fast and agile so keeping their daysacks also means extra ammo close to the assault gp if needed,

    but as i'm in an arty unit i dont get to do i alot of section in attack and nearly no pl in attacks so how it would work in a constant situation is anyones guess,

    well, for one I think the FSG group has enough to carry than carry nine day sacks up to where the section consolidated ...

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