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Daysack / webbing / Armour - Are we getting overloaded?

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  • #16
    Every soldier should carry an axe lest he need to break down a door.....


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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    • #17
      This is the start of the overloading of troops ...

      Blackhawk Down (as in the book) was supposed to be a raid over in an hour.

      I think the whole thing has pros & cons. It is an unwise soldier (as I've learnt from experience) that gets separated from his/her kit.

      Comment


      • #18
        I don't think it's a good idea to be so specific in focussing on classic SIA. Carriage of eqpt needs to be looked at whether its urban, rural or whatever. I do think all mission essential needs to be carried, just not on the actual assault. If anybody should know about being prepared for every eventuality, its us!

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        • #19
          Originally posted by fiannoglach View Post
          I don't think it's a good idea to be so specific in focussing on classic SIA. Carriage of eqpt needs to be looked at whether its urban, rural or whatever. I do think all mission essential needs to be carried, just not on the actual assault. If anybody should know about being prepared for every eventuality, its us!

          Do you think the army is addressing this issue with the new battle vests and day sacks that are going to be on issues shorty?

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          • #20
            Haven't seen the actual items IA, so can't comment on those. But given that our likely employment is PSO and probably MOWAG based, the concept might not be bad. Interesting to see what they come up with.

            Comment


            • #21
              Heres a few things to consider.Doing sia or pia on say a few hours tactical ex and then returning to camp is when i could agree about ditching daysacks etc.A coy or bn level advance to contact which can last 24-48hrs or more is a different thing.In that scenario you leave your bergan with the q trucks and you dont see it again until you get to your next basecamp.In this case you need a datysack as you cant carry wetgear,24 rations ,reserve ammo,extra water or cbrn kit if required in cefo .As part of a large adv to contact your section may get to do one proper sia out of a full company before you move to reserve.The coy comdr is not gonna slow his advance so you can run back to collect your daysacks if you drop em.Yes if the reserve section doesnt mind humping an extra daysack up to the position you have just gone firm on when they move up with the pln sgt then fine.But not allways practical.

              Interesting that the brits use a single rocket with cefo as an "assault" order.All that is carried in the rocket is reserve ammo.No comfort items are allowed!

              I believe that with the advent of the combat vest it will force us to prioritise what we carry in our fighting order.Bullets and water.basic first aid kit.Basic cleaning kit(pullthrough,oil,flannellette),p.r.r,and command kit for leaders.Nothing else and then only if mission specific.The tendency now is to fit umpteen pouches and then try to fill em.WHY????
              "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

              Comment


              • #22
                I believe that with the advent of the combat vest it will force us to prioritise what we carry in our fighting order.Bullets and water.basic first aid kit.Basic cleaning kit(pullthrough,oil,flannellette),p.r.r,and command kit for leaders.Nothing else and then only if mission specific
                Should this not be the case now even with the PLCE?

                ( Whoever invented that system must have been stoned - Need grenade/smoke/etc, where do I have to reach? - Behind me!! Not to mention the thing weights twice as much as it needs to be)
                .In this case you need a daysack as you cant carry wetgear,24 rations ,reserve ammo,extra water or cbrn kit if required in cefo
                But the raingear/rations/ reserve ammo/ extra water (CBRN kit should be on if there was a need for it) are in no way needed in an assault. All they serve to do is slow down the wearer and exhaust them right before they need to be at top momentum
                Last edited by ZULU; 1 August 2007, 23:40.
                "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by ZULU View Post
                  But the raingear/rations/ reserve ammo/ extra water (CBRN kit should be on if there was a need for it) are in no way needed in an assault. All they serve to do is slow down the wearer and exhaust them right before they need to be at top momentum
                  From my experiences, selected people in the Platoon needed to carry daysacks, mostly for Ammo but also for the odd ordnance item that you would get issued. Soon after seeing a Pl Sgt running around loaded down with sandbags of ammo, the decision was made to have a few people carrying daysacks - usually the Sgt, runner, signaller (for the radios) and 2 or 3 people in each section (Usually FSG). We made it a rule that nothing but ammo was to be carried in the daysacks and it worked out well. When you are carrying 1st Line issue of ammo (& more) with grenades, etc, it really makes a difference. We usually carried it belted or in mags for quick use - daysacks made this easy.

                  Also, having a daysack of ammo made it easy for the Sgt to get ammo to the Firebase section - get close and swing a daysack of ammo to them.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    something i tend to do is have the manouvre group (excluding pof and flank security) leave daysacks with the fsg ,seeing they usually contain extra fsg ammo water etc, and the assualt group need to be fast,

                    pof and flank sec dont need to be so fast and agile so keeping their daysacks also means extra ammo close to the assault gp if needed,

                    but as i'm in an arty unit i dont get to do i alot of section in attack and nearly no pl in attacks so how it would work in a constant situation is anyones guess,
                    But there's no danger
                    It's a professional career
                    Though it could be arranged
                    With just a word in Mr. Churchill's ear
                    If you're out of luck you're out of work
                    We could send you to johannesburg.

                    (Elvis Costello, Olivers Army)

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by turbocalves View Post
                      something i tend to do is have the manouvre group (excluding pof and flank security) leave daysacks with the fsg ,seeing they usually contain extra fsg ammo water etc, and the assualt group need to be fast,

                      pof and flank sec dont need to be so fast and agile so keeping their daysacks also means extra ammo close to the assault gp if needed,

                      but as i'm in an arty unit i dont get to do i alot of section in attack and nearly no pl in attacks so how it would work in a constant situation is anyones guess,

                      well, for one I think the FSG group has enough to carry than carry nine day sacks up to where the section consolidated ...

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Irish_Army01 View Post
                        well, for one I think the FSG group has enough to carry than carry nine day sacks up to where the section consolidated ...
                        not everyone carries daysack and at most they get 4 extra and this is offset by the fsg ammo used up in the attack ,

                        like i've said we dont do it as much as i like, and at that in the one's i have done its fared out well,
                        Last edited by turbocalves; 2 August 2007, 23:56.
                        But there's no danger
                        It's a professional career
                        Though it could be arranged
                        With just a word in Mr. Churchill's ear
                        If you're out of luck you're out of work
                        We could send you to johannesburg.

                        (Elvis Costello, Olivers Army)

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by turbocalves View Post
                          not everyone carries daysack and at most they get 4 extra and this is offset by the fsg ammo used up in the attack ,

                          like i've said we dont do it as much as i like, and at that in the one i have done its fared out well,

                          Daysacks/rocket pouches thats whats carried..either way its far to much for an FSG group to carry up to a consolidation point...

                          i've never seen rocket pouches being dropped during a SIA..

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by ZULU View Post
                            I'm talking section level attack (Not FIBUA)
                            this till recently) need to get rid of the UNNECESSARY SHITE in the webbing. The only other things you need are a canteen of water and a cleaning kit.

                            But the thinking trend now is that you need to bring all this extra shite like NVE, Reserve ammo, MAG ammo, shovels etc in a daysack with you during the assault. BOLLOX
                            You're out of your mind, always have your nve, every bullet you can carry ESPECIALLY for the most casualty causing weapon your platoon has (its a MACHINE GUN ffs ...it goes trough rounds at a PRODIGIOUS rate) water and some high caloric nibblies in your pocket.

                            By all means, leave the f@@kin e tools at the ORP.
                            When I breeze into that city, people gonna stoop and bow.
                            All them women gonna make me, teach 'em what they don't know how

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by ZULU View Post
                              Should this not be the case now even with the PLCE?

                              ( Whoever invented that system must have been stoned - Need grenade/smoke/etc, where do I have to reach? - Behind me!! Not to mention the thing weights twice as much as it needs to be)


                              But the raingear/rations/ reserve ammo/ extra water (CBRN kit should be on if there was a need for it) are in no way needed in an assault. All they serve to do is slow down the wearer and exhaust them right before they need to be at top momentum
                              Reserve ammo is no way needed during an assault??Are you for real?What happens if your section/platoon gets pinned down and has to do firebase for a coy attack eh? Why do you need to reach behind you with plce to get your ammo?Thats what ammo pouches are there for.Ammo in left pouch ,h.e and smoke in right pouch.
                              I agree that raingear/rations/etc are not needed to do the assault ,but what about the consolidation?What about the next god forsaken ten plus miles you have to march?What about being told to get in off the road you now have 20 mins to brew up before we move again?What about when it starts raining during those ten plus miles?Yeah you will really be happy you ditched all your shit then.Oh,and what about all the extra water you dont have to help mitigate the fact that the body armour you are wearing is making you overheat?One poxy bottle is not gonna cut it!
                              P.s :Anybody want to carry an entrenching tool on thier cefo in order to dig your shellscrape if you are going firm on the position you have just taken? I dont.
                              Last edited by apod; 8 September 2008, 18:21.
                              "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Everything needs to be carried initially. But I don't see the problem dumping kit with the Pln Sgt's group as it will be him that will need the extra MAG ammo, grenades etc. I don't see that the Reserve Section will have a major problem carrying x number of daysacks.
                                And if we do consolidate for whatever reason, we all consolidate together anyway.

                                And if it rains, we get wet. We don't wear wet gear when we advance to contact, do we?
                                Maybe the girlie units like engineers or cav......

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