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  • #31
    The reserve section will already have all their own equipment to carry, as well as looking after POWs, casualties, work parties, replacement etc.

    The Pln is unlikely to reorg on the reserve section's position.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by fiannoglach View Post
      And if it rains, we get wet. We don't wear wet gear when we advance to contact, do we?
      Maybe the girlie units like engineers or cav......
      Sorry but your wrong there. The girlie units don't need the rain gear. Like Tpt they just stay in their vehicles until the rain stops . Enven then the cav don't need to dismount.
      Without supplies no army is brave.

      —Frederick the Great,

      Instructions to his Generals, 1747

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by fiannoglach View Post
        Everything needs to be carried initially. But I don't see the problem dumping kit with the Pln Sgt's group as it will be him that will need the extra MAG ammo, grenades etc. I don't see that the Reserve Section will have a major problem carrying x number of daysacks.
        And if we do consolidate for whatever reason, we all consolidate together anyway.

        And if it rains, we get wet. We don't wear wet gear when we advance to contact, do we?
        Maybe the girlie units like engineers or cav......
        The platoon sgts group allready has enough to carry and to do without carrying another full sections worth of kit.bearing in mind that a platoon sgts work party is fairly small anyway.I agree that we tend to carry too much but what you are suggesting is just not practical.Keep in mind the time taken to do a pln attack and how fluid it is.Sections rotating roles regularly.Firebase,assault,reserve(work parties)You dont have time to keep going back for kit.What would happen is that it would get left behind altogether!
        Last edited by apod; 8 September 2008, 18:22.
        "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by DeV View Post
          The reserve section will already have all their own equipment to carry, as well as looking after POWs, casualties, work parties, replacement etc.

          The Pln is unlikely to reorg on the reserve section's position.

          The Reserve Section will do exactly what the Pln Sgt tells them to do.

          The Pln will reorg close the assaulting section, where they can drop off their extra daysacks, cos as we all know, in a PIA, that section will probably now become the FS element as the sections cycle through Suppress, Assault and Reserve.

          Comment


          • #35
            I'm with ex-pat here. The idea that after an assault on an objective you will be in a tactical situaltion where you can go back and collect your idea is not a good mindset. You may have to push through, they may have secondary positions behind the one you just took etc. etc. Admittedly daysacks should not be stuffed with all kinds of gucci/snivel gear but there are certain mission/combat related items that can be carried that could prove a lifesaver.
            There may be only one time in your life when your country will call upon you and you will be the only one who can do the nasty job that has to be done -- do it or forever after there will be the taste of ashes in your mouth.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by fiannoglach View Post
              The Reserve Section will do exactly what the Pln Sgt tells them to do.

              The Pln will reorg close the assaulting section, where they can drop off their extra daysacks, cos as we all know, in a PIA, that section will probably now become the FS element as the sections cycle through Suppress, Assault and Reserve.
              I am sorry mate but you are talking b*****ks.In reality plns and sections do not operate in isolation and will have a company behind them pushing them on.As i have said before the coy comdr will not tolerate his advance being slowed because some young LT allowed his/her Pln sgt to tell the bods to drop their daysacks everytime they come under fire thus forcing the troops behind to carry them.I say again the reserve section has enough to do,such as ammo resupply ,providing replacements where neccessary ,marking and covering the dead,providing runners when the comms inevitably go down
              While the idea of dropping packs is a novel one it is just not practical.
              For pdf troops when you are intraining ,be it recruits,pots cse,std cse or cadets when you say cefo it includes daysack.The words reduced cemo are never used.Any course i have ever done had us doing s.i.a/p.i.a wearing rockets or daysack.Any battle p.t i ever did had us carrying 35 pounds weight in same.Nice when you are leopard crawling
              Exceptions to the rule would be when you are operating as Mech inf when you can leave daysacks on the mowags.The Pln Sgt has ultimate say in that too.He may decide to bring em.Radio ops and mag teams would always carry em.
              Another occasion when you could ditch daysacks is when conducting a direct action assault or raid,when you are getting in and out fast and arent going firm on the taken position.In that case CEFO with only what you NEED,not what you think you might.
              As i have said before soldiers loads should be mission specific.
              Last edited by apod; 27 June 2010, 00:24.
              "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by apod View Post
                As i have said before soldiers loads should be mission specific.
                This is somthing that many people say. So why in training do many instructors get people to carry everything including the kitchen sink?
                Surely when designing a training program this is looked at and diffeent missions practiced?
                Without supplies no army is brave.

                —Frederick the Great,

                Instructions to his Generals, 1747

                Comment


                • #38
                  Actually,sadly no.The idea of "mission specific" is only starting to creap into the army way of thinking recently.What tends to happen is that D trg puts an admin in the field list into a TAM or manual and units tend to slavishly follow it.Common sense has to prevail sometimes.What should bring about a change to the "carry everything just in case"attitude is the advent of having to do ALL tactical execises while wearing body armour and plates.Then you will see commanders and soldiers rationalising what they carry.Anyone who has done a platoon attack while wearing that plus kit will know what i am talking about.:wink:
                  Out comes all the crap you think you need and you are left with only what you do.
                  Last edited by apod; 8 September 2008, 18:24.
                  "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by apod View Post
                    Reserve ammo is no way needed during an assault??Are you for real?


                    p.s :Anybody want to carry an entrenching tool on thier cefo in order to dig your shellscrape if you are going firm on the position you have just taken? I dont.
                    Lets try and be clear here. I'm talking about dropping the daysack from the manuv group so they have more "manuverability" to get through cover, obstacles, etc up to the objective. Your not going to be opening your daysack, cracking open a box of ammo and bombing up magazines, looking at GPMG ammo while he's 150m behind you running out of it.

                    Why do you need to reach behind you with plce to get your ammo?Thats what ammo pouches are there for.Ammo in left pouch ,h.e and smoke in right pouch.
                    Cause your carrying 8 magazines in the left and right pouches with HE/Smoke/Thunder/MAG belts in the back pouches

                    What about when it starts raining during those ten plus miles?Yeah you will really be happy you ditched all your shit then. I agrre that raingear/rations/etc are not neede to do the assault ,but what about the consolidation?What about the next god forsaken ten plus miles you have to march.What about being told to get in off the road you now have 20 mins to brew up before we move again?
                    You get cold, wet, uncomfortable and hungry. So what? Your roasting anyway from carrying all the other useful weight.

                    Oh ,and what about all the extra water you dont have to help mitigate the fact that the body armour you are wearing is making you overheat?One poxy bottle is not gonna cut it!
                    I dont have a problem with carrying 4-5litres of water on a advance to contact, but you aint gonna need/want it when assaulting an objective.

                    In realistic terms, it is not a big thing for a runner or two to bring up the dropped kit from a start point when the MAG has taken up a new overwatch position. Its not like they're going to be carrying it for 10 km.

                    I say again the reserve section has enough to do,such as ammo resupply
                    The reserve section bringing up the daysacks that were dropped, with ammo inside them is the ammo resupply no?
                    Last edited by ZULU; 3 August 2007, 18:17.
                    "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      In reality plns and sections do not operate in isolation and will have a company behind them pushing them on.As i have said before the coy comdr will not tolerate his advance being slowed because some young LT allowed his/her Pln sgt to tell the bods to drop their daysacks everytime they come under fire thus forcing the troops behind to carry them.

                      Tell me. How many Coy in Attacks have you done? And in particular how many where the Coy was moving so fast as to not allow resup?

                      The idea of putting in a fluid dynamic attack against a bunker/fortified position wearing all that eqpt is simply not realistic.I know it's done but it's not realistic.

                      And you're right, CBA/lids have a quick way of making you prioritise what you are carrying.

                      I remember doing a PIA with you at the start of the year.

                      Who's talking bollocks now?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by ZULU View Post
                        Lets try and be clear here. I'm talking about dropping the daysack from the manuv group so they have more "manuverability" to get through cover, obstacles, etc up to the objective. Your not going to be opening your daysack, cracking open a box of ammo and bombing up magazines, looking at GPMG ammo while he's 150m behind you running out of it.
                        You will if he/you (the guy your covering/is covering you) is running out of ammo, or you won't have to worry about it - cause you'll be talking to the big GOC in the sky (and I'm not talking about GOC AC).


                        Cause your carrying 8 magazines in the left and right pouches with HE/Smoke/Thunder/MAG belts in the back pouches
                        A real section attack isn't like a normal one you get to do in the RDF where you may get 30 rounds if your luck for each section attack.

                        I dont have a problem with carrying 4-5litres of water on a advance to contact, but you aint gonna need/want it when assaulting an objective.
                        You may want it when you have taken the indepth position and are 200+ metres from your daysack.

                        The reserve section bringing up the daysacks that were dropped, with ammo inside them is the ammo resupply no?
                        What have they done with the stuff you orginally had in your daysack?

                        If I carry a daysack on advance to contact I'm only going to have stuff I want in it - ammo, rations, water, special equipment, radio etc. If I'm going to take it off any where I'll do it on the route to the FAL (if I have to) or at the FAL.

                        Think about it what is the reserve section going to be doing after you have taken the 1st/2nd position - they are going to be doing an assault on the next position - are the going to carrying your and their own daysacks?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by DeV View Post
                          If I carry a daysack on advance to contact I'm only going to have stuff I want in it - ammo, rations, water, special equipment, radio etc. If I'm going to take it off any where I'll do it on the route to the FAL (if I have to) or at the FAL.
                          No you're not. You're going to carry what I tell you to carry, cos we're going to be expecting contact and I'm going to have daysacks of ammo/grenades etc to dump at the Pln Sgt so he can resup the other Sections/FSG.


                          [QUOTE=DeV;173555)
                          Think about it what is the reserve section going to be doing after you have taken the 1st/2nd position - they are going to be doing an assault on the next position - are they going to carrying your and their own daysacks?[/QUOTE]

                          The Reserve Section will be coming to the RP, where the Pln Sgt launches them onto the Pln Cmdr. They can dump their own and the extra daysacks there The PIA isn't going to happen so quickly that they won't have time.

                          So what if they have to carry extra daysacks.

                          War sucks. Wear a helmet

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by fiannoglach View Post
                            In reality plns and sections do not operate in isolation and will have a company behind them pushing them on.As i have said before the coy comdr will not tolerate his advance being slowed because some young LT allowed his/her Pln sgt to tell the bods to drop their daysacks everytime they come under fire thus forcing the troops behind to carry them.

                            Tell me. How many Coy in Attacks have you done? And in particular how many where the Coy was moving so fast as to not allow resup?

                            The idea of putting in a fluid dynamic attack against a bunker/fortified position wearing all that eqpt is simply not realistic.I know it's done but it's not realistic.

                            And you're right, CBA/lids have a quick way of making you prioritise what you are carrying.

                            I remember doing a PIA with you at the start of the year.

                            Who's talking bollocks now?
                            Quite a few actually.How many have you?And you have now started to trip yourself up.No-one is talking about resup.That comes after the battle has been won(or lost!).Dev made my point for me.The reserve section quickly change to being the assault/point section once the first attack has finished.They have enough to be doing without lumping around another sections daysacks.
                            Agreed its not nice ,in fact it sucks balls but i guess thats what we get paid for.
                            So yes you are still talking B*****ks.

                            btw: AFAIK i dont know you.If we know each other pm me and i.d yourself.:wink: Oh and btw it section attack at the start of the year.Pl attack came later and that pl attack was more akin to a raid.We went in did the biz and extracted immediately.We didnt consolidate and we didnt have the rest of a coy gp coming up our ass pushing us on or bypassing us.So not a great example!Were you on Ex Araglin in 97? or the Coy attack exercise in mayo in 98? Those are better examples of what i am on about.

                            p.s I have attached a Packing list used by the paras during OP telic 1 in iraq .Note how little is carried in the cefo and how much is carried in the daysack.Oh and note how in nearly all the photos coming out of Helmand where dismounted advance to contact seems to be the norm for the troops there they are wearing cba,lids and body armour along daysacks and all the other shite.
                            Attached Files
                            Last edited by apod; 3 August 2007, 22:35.
                            "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              I totally agree with the lads on this.

                              You carry your own gear- its an improbable luxury that a section could dump their

                              gear with the Platoon Sgt and then come back to retreive it.

                              for one the pl sgt is constantly moving the reserve section foward and for another

                              in all truth the section who have dumped there gear have to hold the ground captured

                              and they may in them selves become the fire base for the rest of the unit

                              the reserve section have enough to be doing without delivering packs.
                              Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
                              Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
                              The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
                              The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
                              The best lack all conviction, while the worst
                              Are full of passionate intensity.

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                              • #45
                                Comprehensive to say the least! albeit the authour has a sense of humour as well!
                                Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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