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  1. #76
    Teuton Foot Soldier ZULU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Docman View Post

    Is the Section getting overlaoded??? I have a reference book from 1991 that asks the same question. The answer "The infantryman's load never reduces; equipment and ammo may get lighter, but he is simply given more to carry". That was 1991 and I believe the same applies today. Comparison with US troops is a poor comparison - the US uses very different tactics to Ireland and have a very different military, they have a large percentage of heavy Infantry, Irelands emphasis is on Light infantry. A better comparison would be with the brits, or if you are going to use the US - 10th Mountain or 82nd Airborne.

    A very good US report on the issue is below. Think of it this way, if the US think there is a problem with all their logistical resupply capabilities, what hope have we.

    http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/m...LoadReport.pdf
    Where do you think I got the quote in post 58 from
    "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

  2. #77
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    there was a great DFTC training video on section in attack available some years ago which showed the classic text book section in attack. It showed the extra kit being dropped and after the re org after the fianl assault a runner was sent back to collect dropped kit.

    The FSG were to provide security on the re org and everybody picked up and moved on..which is fine if you don't suffer casualties and there is no defence in depth by the enemy.These are unknown quantities in any accatck so difficult to plan for.

    If the distance involved in the attack is minimal and the chances of being hit up again are high its probably a better option to carry all the kit all the way through the attack especially if you are working on a section level beyond the flank security of a second section.

    In the case of a small scale atttack on a known enemy without defence in depth its probably more logical to drop the kit and make things as easy as you can on yourself.

    As was said the specifics are variable so it will vary depending on the scenarion. Its the section commanders call on the day..If it works and you get it right you live to fight another day..if it goes pear shaped well somebody else will learn by your mistakes.

    But in the real world there is no perfect scenario and the enemy will have read the same book as you and will probably anticipate what your actions will be.

    Having spent a week doing enemy against the cadet school doing attacks my own action was to engage them at the closest distance possible leaving them no option but to retreat to reform to plan the attack giving me enough time to move on and reform to attack again after they had put in the attack. The attrition and confusion involved in this often frustrates section leaders, but if a section commanders refuses to be drawn into such a scenario by reverting to multiple sections to assualt from dfferent angles he can tie the enemy down to a fight.

    I think that there isn't enough leeway in how enemey is allowed to operate to allow section commanders to think outside the box and maybe actually learn some thing rather than just going through the motions.

    All the above is just my observation of what I've seen and how I would prefer to see this type of training carried out.
    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

  3. #78
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    Thats true, drifting off topic for a while. Any time I have done enemy it was "fire at them here, then move on to position b, where you will do this etc.

    Why not let the "enemy" act in the same way as friendlies. Let the enemy act out the scenariofrom beginning to end..

    Just a thought.
    Back to backpacks..


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  4. #79
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZULU View Post
    Where do you think I got the quote in post 58 from
    The report ??? 'Cmon i allready told you i had read it.

    I dont think fitness was the overall problem ,but as usual there was a mixture of fitness levels.Motivation yeah.Who wants to haul fifty pounds of crap over a mountain in the dark when you are frozen?Answer-only masochists.

    The officer in charge had holy war with his comdts after,and then went on to have the distinction of being the bn comdr in Eritrea when all the shit happened.Was since transferred to a logs unit where he could do little harm(i hope) and was "encouraged"to retire.I heard a good one about him taking a set of the then trial dpm wet gear off a c.s and saying you wont need it,then wearing it himself.After the ex was over he stood up and told the cold ,wet ,miserable troops how good the new gear was.That no-one had.Langer

    Yeah Fiann i got my hands on the new helmet.Not mad about how far forward the temple straps are.Nearly at the corner of your eyes.Helmet looks like darth vaders.However i will wait to pass judgement until i get mine(whenever that day comes )Havent got my hands on the new body armour though,but i was talking to the officer responsible for purchsaing it last week.Got the distinct impresion that he hadnt thought everything through,with regards to how it is to be worn etc.Why am i not suprised.

  5. #80
    Viking HavocIRL's Avatar
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    Heard reliable info that a recruit platoon is getting the new assault vest/day sacks/knee pads to test out.
    To close with and kill the enemy in all weather conditions, night and day and over any terrain

  6. #81
    CQMS fiannoglach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    Yeah Fiann i got my hands on the new helmet.Not mad about how far forward the temple straps are.Nearly at the corner of your eyes.Helmet looks like darth vaders.However i will wait to pass judgement until i get mine(whenever that day comes )Havent got my hands on the new body armour though,but i was talking to the officer responsible for purchsaing it last week.Got the distinct impresion that he hadnt thought everything through,with regards to how it is to be worn etc.Why am i not suprised.
    Don't know about the helmet yet. It's comfy though, suspension system is a lot better that the yid helmet. It just doesn't look right.

  7. #82
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fiannoglach View Post
    Don't know about the helmet yet. It's comfy though, suspension system is a lot better that the yid helmet. It just doesn't look right.
    It still IS a yid helmet.Same maufacturer Rabintex of Israel.
    Recruit pln getting new stuff sounds about right.Probably because there iss none of the old plce left to give out.Recruits down south earlier this year got webbing that had been taken back from non operational troops like cooks and those medically excused duties.Sad situation.:redface:
    Not sure about them getting the combat vest though,as the tender is still out and none have been delivered.Keep us posted if you get any more info.

  8. #83
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    Recruits down south earlier this year got webbing that had been taken back from non operational troops like cooks and those medically excused duties.Sad situation.:redface:
    Not wonder we still have to make do with 58 pattern, I know of an RDF sub-unit that almost has as much 37 pattern in stores as 58 pattern (and I'm not be scarcastic)!

  9. #84
    Major General ODIN's Avatar
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    37 Patter??? Dev...you must be joking...
    What are you cackling at, fatty? Too much pie, that's your problem.

  10. #85
    Serf hedgehog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    Not wonder we still have to make do with 58 pattern, I know of an RDF sub-unit that almost has as much 37 pattern in stores as 58 pattern (and I'm not be scarcastic)!
    there must be film companies looking for that

    not infantry companies
    Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
    Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
    The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
    The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
    The best lack all conviction, while the worst
    Are full of passionate intensity.

  11. #86
    Orpheus WES's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    Any pdf here remember the bde execises in 2002?The infamous table top mountain bn advance to contact "Mirror image".Those in high places decided(rightly)that the troops should carry a "realistic combat load" which meant everybody carrying quivers of sand to simulate the carrying of mortar and 84 rds to the gun line before the assault.Normal practice for the yanks and brits i believe.
    What happened.Chaos thats what!To make room for the extra kit such as the above plus cbrn ipe,people started dumping warm/dry kit ,wets etc.result was when the south did their ex the weather was atrocious and the lads had no foul weather gear.People went down with hypo and as a result of the ground being churned up by a couple of hundred soldiers advancing at night over a mountain,some fell and broke legs etc.The advance was stop start at the best of times and people were out in the lashing rain,freezing for hours.The whole thing turned into the retreat from moscow.A total gang f**k.And i wont even go into what some folks did with regards weapons and kit
    I was a pln sgt on that fiasco. Bn comdr, who should have been leading his troops, was waiting for his bn on the other side of the mountain sitting in an FFR kitted out in full new DPM wetgear, obviously trying them out to see if they work. Can't comment on what other plns did with their kit before the ex but it certainly wasn't "dumped" at the start line. Anyway the weather moved in so fast we were soaked through before we had a chance to put on our wetgear due to the fact that there was no stopping. When we did eventually manage to get our wetgear out we we just putting it on over clothing that was soaked through anyway. Kit was dumped on the mountain and priority was given to weapons to get them down, at least that's what my pln did and we had a bit more to carry than most. Said bn comdr, and I use that term lightly, did in fact end up in charge of DF accomodation or something like that as I had the misfortune to meet him a few years later.
    The worst sin toward our fellow creatures is not to hate them, but to be indifferent to them: that's the essence of inhumanity.
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  12. #87
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ODIN View Post
    37 Patter??? Dev...you must be joking...
    Unfortually not

  13. #88
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WES View Post
    I was a pln sgt on that fiasco. Bn comdr, who should have been leading his troops, was waiting for his bn on the other side of the mountain sitting in an FFR kitted out in full new DPM wetgear, obviously trying them out to see if they work. Can't comment on what other plns did with their kit before the ex but it certainly wasn't "dumped" at the start line. Anyway the weather moved in so fast we were soaked through before we had a chance to put on our wetgear due to the fact that there was no stopping. When we did eventually manage to get our wetgear out we we just putting it on over clothing that was soaked through anyway. Kit was dumped on the mountain and priority was given to weapons to get them down, at least that's what my pln did and we had a bit more to carry than most. Said bn comdr, and I use that term lightly, did in fact end up in charge of DF accomodation or something like that as I had the misfortune to meet him a few years later.
    I wont mention what was done with some kit on the mountain as people from other armies visit this forum.Embarrasssing to say the least.And yeah he got shitcanned.Muppet

  14. #89
    Commander in Chief Bravo20's Avatar
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    From reading the responses to this, I don't think the problem is with carrying a daysack into an assault, it seems to be what people carry in their daysack. The "para" list that Zulu posted should be in your bergin. In my view what should be in your daysack is ammo and other equipment neccessary for fighting.

  15. #90
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    I would say it depends on how often you get to see your bergan.In all out war you may not see it for days as the loggies priorities will be to resup ammo,rations,water and p.o.l
    Comfort items come last.Obviously the para bn head shed were aiming off for this.
    Those daysacks would then either be cached before an assault or left on the units organic tpt.
    Under normal conditions though most troops wouldnt carry that much in the daysack,merely a subsistence load

  16. #91
    2/Lt Bam Bam's Avatar
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    How was it handled in the Falklands?

    The British had to yomp with their bergens and if they were hit up were the bergens ditched and picked up later or brought forward with a reserve section?
    It is only by contemplation of the incompetent that we can appreciate the difficulties and accomplishments of the competent.

  17. #92
    Lt General Barry's Avatar
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    Some members of the Parachute Regiment might take offence with your implication that they were yomping, Bam Bam

    The issue here is NOT moving with CEMO and being hit up - it is with the idea of wearing a daysack with CEFO (which, like the name suggests, is worn when fighting) and dumping the daysack at some point during an attack, versus keeping it on your back for the duration.

  18. #93
    2/Lt Bam Bam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Some members of the Parachute Regiment might take offence with your implication that they were yomping, Bam Bam

    The issue here is NOT moving with CEMO and being hit up - it is with the idea of wearing a daysack with CEFO (which, like the name suggests, is worn when fighting) and dumping the daysack at some point during an attack, versus keeping it on your back for the duration.
    Yomping is a great term and truly describes how we all move with cemo.....with difficulty.

    I'm sure they had daysack too, just wondering where their bergens would have gone. Might give an idea where their daysacks could have gone too.
    It is only by contemplation of the incompetent that we can appreciate the difficulties and accomplishments of the competent.

  19. #94
    Lt General Barry's Avatar
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    It was 1982, the lads were using SLRs, 58 pattern, DMS boots and puttees.......PLCE and daysacks were a long way off.

  20. #95
    Captain Truck Driver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    It was 1982, the lads were using SLRs, 58 pattern, DMS boots and puttees.......PLCE and daysacks were a long way off.
    Ah yes, the 58 pattern lunch bag...........

  21. #96
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bam Bam View Post
    Yomping is a great term and truly describes how we all move with cemo.....with difficulty.

    I'm sure they had daysack too, just wondering where their bergens would have gone. Might give an idea where their daysacks could have gone too.
    No actually daysacks didnt find favour till many years later.
    Royal marines yomp.Paras tab.Same thing different vernacular.:wink:

  22. #97
    Commander in Chief hptmurphy's Avatar
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    Yomp is Marine talk while Tab actually stands for tactical advance to battle !
    Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

  23. #98
    Captain Truck Driver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hptmurphy View Post
    Yomp is Marine talk while Tab actually stands for tactical advance to battle !
    I never fail to learn something new on this board.....

  24. #99
    the gunney greyfox's Avatar
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    from what ive read the 58 pattern school bag was never used by the brits because of its tiny size most used commercial backpacks in the Falklands
    "take a look to the sky right before you die, its the last time you will"

  25. #100
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greyfox View Post
    from what ive read the 58 pattern school bag was never used by the brits because of its tiny size most used commercial backpacks in the Falklands
    Correct.With the Berghaus vulcan being the most popular.This pack was the design basis for the plce bergan but the plce began wasnt up to berghaus quality standards so they wouldnt endorse it.
    Just a nice to know

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