Just to query zulu where are you getting 8 mags from?Frontline ammo is 150 rds 5.56 carried in five magazines and 150 in boxes .Four mags in pouch ,one on the steyr.re-bomb up during reorg.h.e goes in the front right ammo pouch and smoke in the rear right.
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Daysack / webbing / Armour - Are we getting overloaded?
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"Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.
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Originally posted by apod View PostQuite a few actually.How many have you?And you have now started to trip yourself up.No-one is talking about resup.That comes after the battle has been won(or lost!).
HH - Who do you think brings the Reserve Ammo forward to the now depleted Section acting as FS?
Originally posted by apod View Postbtw: AFAIK i dont know you. That pl attack was more akin to a raid.We went in did the biz and extracted immediately.So not a great example!
And you're right - not a great example
Read those horseshit Para lists too.
Says the daysack is used for 24 hrs sustainment and the CEFO for "Fighting through". Now you wonder why it's so empty, maybe to make room for extra ammo/grenades?
Seen **** all in the daysack of any use during the assault, so why carry it?
{MOD:NOTE TO EVERYONE - Keep the discussion to the point. Insulting and derogatory remarks will not be tolerated. Rebuff with anecdotal evidence by all means but use it constructively to strengthen your arguments}Last edited by ZULU; 4 August 2007, 00:50.
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HH - Who do you think brings the Reserve Ammo forward to the now depleted Section acting as FS?
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
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Originally posted by hedgehog View PostDHL
What I would like to see on PIA/SIA's is better use of Support Weaponry - integrating .50's, 60's, SRAAW's /Javelins, better use of MAG SF's. Cos that's what we'd really do - hammer the shite out of them and then assault!
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Whats the point in having the 150rds in boxes in your webbing?
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Half your ammo is going to be used in suppressing a position with the other half used for flank/depth/assault onto positions. The dozen HE + several smoke going into the rest of the PLCE along with a belt or two.
Speed onto the assault is going to keep ammo expenditure by the FSG to a minimum needed. By dropping the daysack with boxed ammo/water/Ent Tool your increasing the assaulting elements top speed and manuverability by dropping weight they will not get access to during the assault.
It is not that bad for the 2IC, 2 FSG, Link - to bring up 6 daysacks the maximum of 300m on the re-org. They would not even have to carry them that far becasue of the extra bodies soaked up along the way"The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"
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What I would like to see on PIA/SIA's is better use of Support Weaponry - integrating .50's, 60's, SRAAW's /Javelins, better use of MAG SF's. Cos that's what we'd really do - hammer the shite out of them and then assault!
I take it your level of experience is far greater than the combined of those who question your points..by any chance could you post your vast repitoire of experience ?,,,and allow us to have an insight into your fantastic level of experience in carrying out the various assaults that have provided you with a wealth of knowledge...such knowledge would be invaluable to the rest of us mere and humble mortals.Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe
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Originally posted by ZULU View PostIt is not that bad for the 2IC, 2 FSG, Link - to bring up 6 daysacks the maximum of 300m on the re-org. They would not even have to carry them that far becasue of the extra bodies soaked up along the way
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True Dev. If the assaulting element run into more opposition/ambush further along wouldn't it be beter that all the reserve ammo etc be back with the surviving element for redistribution to the upcoming support sections and not be a) in some one elses hands or b) in no mans land between the two sides?
This guy in the reserve section has them
And first thing if he came under fire and had to assault a position would be to drop the pack and take only the ammo and HE that could be readily fired and thrown
This seems to be an Irish Army thinking. Friends of mine who have been in the marines / british army / forgein legion all drop the reserve ammo and assault through the position then re org by a) the FSG bringing up the kit b) sending a runner.Last edited by ZULU; 4 August 2007, 03:45."The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"
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Originally posted by hptmurphy View PostI take it your level of experience is far greater than the combined of those who question your points......
Originally posted by hptmurphy View PostBy any chance could you post your vast repitoire of experience ?,,,and allow us to have an insight into your fantastic level of experience in carrying out the various assaults that have provided you with a wealth of knowledge.........
No. Mind your own business.
Originally posted by hptmurphy View PostSuch knowledge would be invaluable to the rest of us mere and humble mortals.
Originally posted by hptmurphy View PostCan't wait to see you carrying all this kit....Last edited by fiannoglach; 4 August 2007, 12:31.
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“On the field of battle man is not only a thinking animal, he is a beast of
burden. He is given great weights to carry. But unlike the mule, the jeep,
or any other carrier, his chief function in war does not begin until the
time he delivers that burden to the appointed ground…In fact we have
always done better by a mule than by a man. We were careful not to load
the mule with more than a third of his weight.”
Lets look at this statement and apply it to a fighting load
Rifle, ammo, GPMG ammo, HE, Smoke, Bayonet, PLCE, radio and 1L of water comes in approx 21kg
+ Body armour, plates, lid = 11kg
Clothes, boots and admin = 5 kg?
TOTAL = 37kg
Now - I weigh in at 95kg and am 6,1.
Thats still over the 33%.
And this is WITHOUT all the stuff in the daysack
If an aggressive Soldier equipment weight loss program is not undertaken by the
Army as a whole, the Soldier’s combat load will continue to increase and his physical
performance will continue to be even more severely degraded by the loads that he carries in the
world’s harshest environments.
The weight of the combat load borne by the dismounted warrior can only be reduced
through a combination of providing the Soldier with lighter systems while also off loading any
and all equipment that is not immediately needed in a firefight, to alternate forms of
transportation.
Dismounted Operations in Afghanistan
April - May 2003Last edited by ZULU; 4 August 2007, 13:07."The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"
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Para Daysack list
Bivy / Poncho
ETH
24hr rations
Cam cream
Personal Med kit
30m Paracord
Mess tin & spoon
Warm layers
1L water
Spare socks
Spare batts
CWS ( I think this should be on the weapon)
Shave kit
Resp / NBC ( Worn if intelligence suggests)
Whats on that daysack list that you could absolutley not do without on an assault, section level?Last edited by ZULU; 4 August 2007, 13:21."The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"
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Fianoglach i have to agree that we dont nearly make enough use out of our organic support weapons when doing section/platoon attacks.Why we carry around sraaws and 203's is beyond me when we dont seem to have a clue when to use them.Actually on most exercises including the recent ones we were on the 203's werent even brought even though they are a section weapon since 2001.Why bother buying em if we dont use em?
Zulu.Units only have a finite amount of magazines to issue out amongst the coys.The issue is five.Thats it.Why do you think one of the test on the steyr toet is reloading magazines in a set time (mod)?In case you have to do it under fire thats why.You have done lftt same as me and that was one of the practices we had to do.As for carrying twelve he grenades Yes ,tm 201 states that a small number of people in the section carry that many - not everyone (mod).Reality is that everyone in the section gets one or two to spread the weight.Also helps if the lead men dont have all your h.e if they get shot!
Fiannoglach;as i said if you know me be a man and pm me and stop trying to be "mysterious".You would be surprised at who knows who here:wink:
p.s. I think h.h was talking to zulu not you.Dont be so touchy.
p.p.s ;Zulu those first few phots are all of troops that were operating from vechicles or on short duration missions.Not long dismounted advance to contact.Heres a few that were.Also not that even during fibua daysacks were worn!Last edited by DeV; 4 August 2007, 14:09."Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.
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I'll agree to spreading out the HE etc but if your advancing into contact with known enemy positions your going to want to get your hands on more than 12 HE, MAG ammo, Magazines etc.
Apod - Your last photo. THe assaulting element is not wearing packs. Thats my point. The two that are are carrying SAW'sLast edited by ZULU; 4 August 2007, 13:32."The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"
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