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  • #46
    Just to query zulu where are you getting 8 mags from?Frontline ammo is 150 rds 5.56 carried in five magazines and 150 in boxes .Four mags in pouch ,one on the steyr.re-bomb up during reorg.h.e goes in the front right ammo pouch and smoke in the rear right.
    "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by apod View Post
      Quite a few actually.How many have you?And you have now started to trip yourself up.No-one is talking about resup.That comes after the battle has been won(or lost!).
      Ive done enough to know that it is the Reserve Section that brings the Reserve Ammo forward. Everybody seems to think about going back, who said anything about going back?

      HH - Who do you think brings the Reserve Ammo forward to the now depleted Section acting as FS?


      Originally posted by apod View Post
      btw: AFAIK i dont know you. That pl attack was more akin to a raid.We went in did the biz and extracted immediately.So not a great example!
      I know you.

      And you're right - not a great example

      Read those horseshit Para lists too.
      Says the daysack is used for 24 hrs sustainment and the CEFO for "Fighting through". Now you wonder why it's so empty, maybe to make room for extra ammo/grenades?
      Seen **** all in the daysack of any use during the assault, so why carry it?

      {MOD:NOTE TO EVERYONE - Keep the discussion to the point. Insulting and derogatory remarks will not be tolerated. Rebuff with anecdotal evidence by all means but use it constructively to strengthen your arguments}
      Last edited by ZULU; 4 August 2007, 00:50.

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      • #48
        HH - Who do you think brings the Reserve Ammo forward to the now depleted Section acting as FS?
        DHL
        Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
        Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
        The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere***
        The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
        The best lack all conviction, while the worst
        Are full of passionate intensity.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by hedgehog View Post
          DHL
          Probably do a better job..........


          What I would like to see on PIA/SIA's is better use of Support Weaponry - integrating .50's, 60's, SRAAW's /Javelins, better use of MAG SF's. Cos that's what we'd really do - hammer the shite out of them and then assault!

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          • #50
            Whats the point in having the 150rds in boxes in your webbing?
            `
            Half your ammo is going to be used in suppressing a position with the other half used for flank/depth/assault onto positions. The dozen HE + several smoke going into the rest of the PLCE along with a belt or two.

            Speed onto the assault is going to keep ammo expenditure by the FSG to a minimum needed. By dropping the daysack with boxed ammo/water/Ent Tool your increasing the assaulting elements top speed and manuverability by dropping weight they will not get access to during the assault.

            It is not that bad for the 2IC, 2 FSG, Link - to bring up 6 daysacks the maximum of 300m on the re-org. They would not even have to carry them that far becasue of the extra bodies soaked up along the way
            "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

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            • #51
              What I would like to see on PIA/SIA's is better use of Support Weaponry - integrating .50's, 60's, SRAAW's /Javelins, better use of MAG SF's. Cos that's what we'd really do - hammer the shite out of them and then assault!
              Can't wait to see you carrying all this kit...

              I take it your level of experience is far greater than the combined of those who question your points..by any chance could you post your vast repitoire of experience ?,,,and allow us to have an insight into your fantastic level of experience in carrying out the various assaults that have provided you with a wealth of knowledge...such knowledge would be invaluable to the rest of us mere and humble mortals.
              Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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              • #52
                Pictures of troops under fire











                Daysacks?
                "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

                Comment


                • #53
                  This guy in the reserve section has them


                  It is only by contemplation of the incompetent that we can appreciate the difficulties and accomplishments of the competent.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by ZULU View Post
                    It is not that bad for the 2IC, 2 FSG, Link - to bring up 6 daysacks the maximum of 300m on the re-org. They would not even have to carry them that far becasue of the extra bodies soaked up along the way
                    You are assuming the whole section has survived the contact and a whole section crossed the start line.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      True Dev. If the assaulting element run into more opposition/ambush further along wouldn't it be beter that all the reserve ammo etc be back with the surviving element for redistribution to the upcoming support sections and not be a) in some one elses hands or b) in no mans land between the two sides?

                      This guy in the reserve section has them


                      And first thing if he came under fire and had to assault a position would be to drop the pack and take only the ammo and HE that could be readily fired and thrown

                      This seems to be an Irish Army thinking. Friends of mine who have been in the marines / british army / forgein legion all drop the reserve ammo and assault through the position then re org by a) the FSG bringing up the kit b) sending a runner.
                      Last edited by ZULU; 4 August 2007, 03:45.
                      "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                        I take it your level of experience is far greater than the combined of those who question your points......
                        Yes.


                        Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                        By any chance could you post your vast repitoire of experience ?,,,and allow us to have an insight into your fantastic level of experience in carrying out the various assaults that have provided you with a wealth of knowledge.........

                        No. Mind your own business.

                        Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                        Such knowledge would be invaluable to the rest of us mere and humble mortals.
                        In your case, I doubt it

                        Originally posted by hptmurphy View Post
                        Can't wait to see you carrying all this kit....
                        Now your just being silly.
                        Last edited by fiannoglach; 4 August 2007, 12:31.

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                        • #57
                          “On the field of battle man is not only a thinking animal, he is a beast of
                          burden. He is given great weights to carry. But unlike the mule, the jeep,
                          or any other carrier, his chief function in war does not begin until the
                          time he delivers that burden to the appointed ground…In fact we have
                          always done better by a mule than by a man. We were careful not to load
                          the mule with more than a third of his weight.”
                          S.L.A. Marshall, The Soldier’s Load and the Mobility of a Nation, 1950

                          Lets look at this statement and apply it to a fighting load

                          Rifle, ammo, GPMG ammo, HE, Smoke, Bayonet, PLCE, radio and 1L of water comes in approx 21kg

                          + Body armour, plates, lid = 11kg

                          Clothes, boots and admin = 5 kg?

                          TOTAL = 37kg

                          Now - I weigh in at 95kg and am 6,1.

                          Thats still over the 33%.

                          And this is WITHOUT all the stuff in the daysack

                          If an aggressive Soldier equipment weight loss program is not undertaken by the
                          Army as a whole, the Soldier’s combat load will continue to increase and his physical
                          performance will continue to be even more severely degraded by the loads that he carries in the
                          world’s harshest environments.

                          The weight of the combat load borne by the dismounted warrior can only be reduced
                          through a combination of providing the Soldier with lighter systems while also off loading any
                          and all equipment that is not immediately needed in a firefight, to alternate forms of
                          transportation
                          .
                          The Modern Warrior’s Combat Load
                          Dismounted Operations in Afghanistan
                          April - May 2003
                          Last edited by ZULU; 4 August 2007, 13:07.
                          "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Para Daysack list

                            Bivy / Poncho
                            ETH
                            24hr rations
                            Cam cream
                            Personal Med kit
                            30m Paracord
                            Mess tin & spoon
                            Warm layers
                            1L water
                            Spare socks
                            Spare batts
                            CWS ( I think this should be on the weapon)
                            Shave kit
                            Resp / NBC ( Worn if intelligence suggests)

                            Whats on that daysack list that you could absolutley not do without on an assault, section level?
                            Last edited by ZULU; 4 August 2007, 13:21.
                            "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Fianoglach i have to agree that we dont nearly make enough use out of our organic support weapons when doing section/platoon attacks.Why we carry around sraaws and 203's is beyond me when we dont seem to have a clue when to use them.Actually on most exercises including the recent ones we were on the 203's werent even brought even though they are a section weapon since 2001.Why bother buying em if we dont use em?

                              Zulu.Units only have a finite amount of magazines to issue out amongst the coys.The issue is five.Thats it.Why do you think one of the test on the steyr toet is reloading magazines in a set time (mod)?In case you have to do it under fire thats why.You have done lftt same as me and that was one of the practices we had to do.As for carrying twelve he grenades Yes ,tm 201 states that a small number of people in the section carry that many - not everyone (mod).Reality is that everyone in the section gets one or two to spread the weight.Also helps if the lead men dont have all your h.e if they get shot!

                              Fiannoglach;as i said if you know me be a man and pm me and stop trying to be "mysterious".You would be surprised at who knows who here:wink:

                              p.s. I think h.h was talking to zulu not you.Dont be so touchy.

                              p.p.s ;Zulu those first few phots are all of troops that were operating from vechicles or on short duration missions.Not long dismounted advance to contact.Heres a few that were.Also not that even during fibua daysacks were worn!
                              Attached Files
                              Last edited by DeV; 4 August 2007, 14:09.
                              "Let us be clear about three facts. First, all battles and all wars are won in the end by the infantryman. Secondly, the infantryman always bears the brunt. His casualties are heavier, he suffers greater extremes of discomfort and fatigue than the other arms. Thirdly, the art of the infantryman is less stereotyped and far harder to acquire in modern war than that of any other arm." ------- Field Marshall Wavell, April 1945.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                I'll agree to spreading out the HE etc but if your advancing into contact with known enemy positions your going to want to get your hands on more than 12 HE, MAG ammo, Magazines etc.

                                Apod - Your last photo. THe assaulting element is not wearing packs. Thats my point. The two that are are carrying SAW's
                                Last edited by ZULU; 4 August 2007, 13:32.
                                "The Question is not: how far you will take this? The Question is do you possess the constitution to go as far as is needed?"

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