Daysack / webbing / Armour - Are we getting overloaded?

[apod]

I'll agree to spreading out the HE etc but if your advancing into contact with known enemy positions your going to want to get your hands on more than 12 HE, MAG ammo, Magazines etc.

Apod - Your last photo. THe assaulting element is not wearing packs. Thats my point. The two that are are carrying SAW's

I would say they were ALL the assault element,and what about the other photos eh?Oh and since when was it practice for only the Sp wpn gunners to carry all the Sp wpn ammo?If you want to flah the fsg then crack on,but thats not the way i was trained.We ALL carry our fair share. Yes you are gonna want more.Thats what daysacks are their for as you wont be able to fit much more in cefo!

Anyway, i am gonna give it a rest now as obviously this is falling on deaf ears.In a weird way i have actually defended a pratice that i actually curse myself i.e carrying inappropiate kit.But the way i was trained and the way the army still trains its troops is that your fighting order,unless mech inf,includes daysack.Personally as i have stated it should be mission specific.You carry what you need for the task in hand.Now if i was doing a stand alone Pl attack in kilworth and i knew i was gonna be finished the ex in an hour and then back to camp then my daysack would be left on the tpt.On the other hand if i was doing a 8-12 hour coy/bn adv to contact where i have to aim off for adverse weather,carry my rations for the day and carry reserve ammo then daysack all the way.

As for the magazines issue,well thats not for me to change.I agree i would prefer to carry all my ammo bombed up.But it seldom happens.

To conclude the question was are we getting overloaded?Probably yes,can we do anything about it ?Yes,only carry what you need.Nothing else,but you will still need spare carrying capacity for when some Sgt hands you extra link,mortar rds etc.Could we drop our daysacks during an assault? No.Its not practical.Is my opinion right or wrong?Who knows,i have merely stated the way we train our people and our practices and as we seem to take all our practices from our anglo cousins who are fighting two wars at present and have more combat experience then any of us here will most likely ever have,then who am i to question?

[Barry]

As for the magazines issue,well thats not for me to change.I agree i would prefer to carry all my ammo bombed up.But it seldom happens.

Carrying amn in stripper clips would make a shortage of magazines much less of an issue, since they can be used to load a mag in feck all time.

And for those who doubt that they exist for the Steyr, see here: http://www.e-gunparts.com/DisplayAd....SKU=885200&MC=

Edit: Or, for the outrageously gucci: http://maglula.tripod.com/Benchloader.htm (scroll down a bit)

[Goldie fish]

Odd that they had them for the antique FN and 303, but not the steyr.

[apod]

Carrying amn in stripper clips would make a shortage of magazines much less of an issue, since they can be used to load a mag in feck all time.

And for those who doubt that they exist for the Steyr, see here: http://www.e-gunparts.com/DisplayAd....SKU=885200&MC=

Edit: Or, for the outrageously gucci: http://maglula.tripod.com/Benchloader.htm (scroll down a bit)

Actually i have seen them personally.Most of the lads in my unit who served in east timor had em as they are on issue to the Aussies and Kiwi's.Nice ,usefull bit of kit.
Why we dont have em god knows as they are only a piece of plastic after all.The dept being cheapos again i guess

[fiannoglach]

This is a good thread, lots of info here. However, we are talking about a very specific point in the assault, when the assault group begins to move into postiton for the assault. At least that's what I'm talking about. I believe they could drop the daysacks but thats my opinion and opinions are like arseholes, everyone's got one! Maybe the new Combat Vest will have a pocket at the rear like the S African Vest, great for spare ammo and belts only.
And there are many variables and conditions as Apod said.

But the answer is yes, we are overloading the Section.

Why we dont have em god knows as they are only a piece of plastic after all.The dept being cheapos again i guess

Have used these myself. However they only work if your ammo is issued in stripper clips, which ours is not, unfortunately.

[hptmurphy]

Fiannoglach I appreciate your history and experience.

Was just taunting but would appreciate all insights ( seriously ) about what anyone can provide as it is the greater good for all those who may need to know these things .

Quite a good thread and was slow to be drawn into it because of the varying opinions people and indeed units have on the subject. It seems to me ..the facts are simple if it works ..it works and if it dosen't there is always the opertunity to try something new.

It seems to be mission specific as opposed to general practise depending on AO and distance from resupply that would dictate what is carried when..what support is available and method of deployment i.e from soft skins , armour or helo to what guys will acrry in the first place and for how long the tasking is due to last.

would I be correct in my assumption?

[fiannoglach]

Hi murph, just having a bit of craic myself. Please don't feel offended.

I think you hit the nail on the head. It's all mission specific. If it was an ideal world, I would not drop any of my eqpt.

You have to decide - What is acceptable risk? Does our enemies have a, b or c? What if things go wrong? Am I operating as a Coy, Pln or Section?
Do we have to wear armor? Can we drop the plates?
Do we have to assault? Can we use arty/mortars/direct fire?


In an ideal world, I would like to stand off and use firepower to neutralize my objective. But this isn't an ideal world and as we speak soldiers somewhere are manoeuvring up some shitty gully with more kit than they'd care to carry.

But hey, if it was easy, anybody could do it

[johnny no stars]

TOTAL = 37kg

Now - I weigh in at 95kg and am 6,1.

Thats still over the 33%.

And this is WITHOUT all the stuff in the daysack

haha it's still less than 40% your body weight. Try 75% your body weight *trembles in fear of actually having to carry all that at some stage*

[hedgehog]

how come your in posting stuff on here on the night of your birthday

i have to be in because of 3 kids and a screaming wife

whats your excuse

[johnny no stars]

I'm up before 7 tomorrow morning for work. plus, I'm going out tomorrow and I'm also having a 3 day thing to celebrate next week :P I'd think it's a reasonable excuse.

Which reminds me to get to bed

[Docman]

Well, I will talk about my own experience....

A few years ago, while on PSO Exs & cses, my guys took to wearing Daysacks while on Ops. Noone told them to, they didn't see it anywhere but it relieved many of the problems we had with carrying around sandbags of stuff. It is one thing to go on Ex and be handed 2 mags & 20rds, it is another thing to be on a course and have to carry around 30 thunderflashes. Discipline was always maintained and guys did not load themselves down with anything other than ammo or ordnance. Maybe it has no basis in reality but on Ex, if you are issued with NVE, you will not let go of it no matter what. So soon, a lot of guys took to wearing them. If you had nothing to carry, they were not even noticed but they were there if you were suddenly issued a load of ammo or ordnance while on the ground. The big thing was we used to get issued boxes of ammo and didn't have time to put them in mags - Daysacks were extremely handy to dump stuff into until you had time later to sort it out.

More recently, as RDF sections get more gear to carry (GPMGs & SRAAWs), anyone carrying extra equipment (like the above) would forget about daysack and worry about their new load. So long a discipline is maintained and people don't start stuffing useless gear into their daysack, then there should be no problem.

The issue about the Reserve Section carrying daysacks, my experience (as a Pl Sgt) is that the Pl sgt tends to stick with the Res sect and use bodies in it to load mags etc. However, the Reserve section is exactly that - just because it is in Reserve does not mean it will not be used. I have seen PIAs where all 3 sections have been in action simultaneously. They are in Reserve - doesn't mean that they cannot be used - merely that they are there to be used if needed. My experience is that the Pl Sgt will make use of them until the sect cmdr gets orders from the Pl cmdr to do something. As a Pl sgt, I had reserve sects loading ammo only to drop everything when they got orders to move on. I find it surprising that people think the Reserve section is akin to a work party. Maybe in a textbook PIA, but usually I find the Reserve section gets stuck in more often than not.

Is the Section getting overlaoded??? I have a reference book from 1991 that asks the same question. The answer "The infantryman's load never reduces; equipment and ammo may get lighter, but he is simply given more to carry". That was 1991 and I believe the same applies today. Comparison with US troops is a poor comparison - the US uses very different tactics to Ireland and have a very different military, they have a large percentage of heavy Infantry, Irelands emphasis is on Light infantry. A better comparison would be with the brits, or if you are going to use the US - 10th Mountain or 82nd Airborne.

A lot of this id down to fitness. If your fitness is good, you should be able to carry heavier loads easier. I have seen some struggle to carry just a rifle alone.

A very good US report on the issue is below. Think of it this way, if the US think there is a problem with all their logistical resupply capabilities, what hope have we.

https://www.thedonovan.com/archives/modernwarriorload/ModernWarriorsCombatLoadReport.pdf

[thebig C]

haha it's still less than 40% your body weight. Try 75% your body weight *trembles in fear of actually having to carry all that at some stage*

No bother!

[apod]

I read that report before.Interesting reading.The yanks tend to carry so called "3 day assault packs" which having seen them in Kosovo are nearly the same size of a bergan.Not exactly a reduction is it?
Any pdf here remember the bde execises in 2002?The infamous table top mountain bn advance to contact "Mirror image".Those in high places decided(rightly)that the troops should carry a "realistic combat load" which meant everybody carrying quivers of sand to simulate the carrying of mortar and 84 rds to the gun line before the assault.Normal practice for the yanks and brits i believe.
What happened.Chaos thats what!To make room for the extra kit such as the above plus cbrn ipe,people started dumping warm/dry kit ,wets etc.result was when the south did their ex the weather was atrocious and the lads had no foul weather gear.People went down with hypo and as a result of the ground being churned up by a couple of hundred soldiers advancing at night over a mountain,some fell and broke legs etc.The advance was stop start at the best of times and people were out in the lashing rain,freezing for hours.The whole thing turned into the retreat from moscow.A total gang f**k.And i wont even go into what some folks did with regards weapons and kit:redface:
Why did this happen?A couple of reasons imho.
1/ The load carrying kit was not up to the task.Some units were insisting on their troops only wearing issue kit i.e rockets.Too small to carry all the kit needed.
2/Poor planning on behalf of the head shed,Anybody ever hear 0f the met forecast?
3/Only a few souls had wet gear.(take note those who said we dont wear wets on adv to contact.Your assault aint gonna work if all your troops are hypothermic before you get there

This is indeed a good thread.Some very postive points and construcively critical opinions on an issue that should be high on the head sheds agenda.If only they were reading this.

Fiann;The specs for the new combat vest can be found on the dept of defence website under "procurement".Their is no rear pouch of any kind on the spec.Their is a camelak allright,which i have been told is replacing the issue waterbottle.Interesting also that they want no dividers in the ammo pouches and the ability to carry 3 mags in each.Total 12 mags(which we will rarely get zulu:wink: )Vest proposed is similar to the current ARW semi modular vest.

[fiannoglach]

Apod, I was on that Ex too. You left out fitness, lack of experience and lack of motivation. There was no leadership. The enemy party, some of whom were reservists, had no kit, really bad.

BTW, had a look at the new helmet and armor. Don't like the highneck pieces and its a bit broad around the chest - hard to get a fire position, again my opinion. Helmet is comfortable.

[Goldie fish]

You won't believe me, but I was also on that ex.(proposed enemy) If it wasn't for NBC suits, many more would have gone down with Hypothermia. The weather did turn quite dramatically at about 5pm. I can only hope that the man who was in charge of that ex has not proceeded any further up the ladder. He was observed, standing in a tent, admiring his new boots and commenting on how comfy and waterproof they were.
I thought the days of loading down the backpack with sand or rocks had gone out with Noah and the Ark.