DF deployment to Chad

[BANDIT]

As Luichi says it is a complex situation..and people should not get over defensive, Journalists will report anything they hear and I gather from the UNHCR persons perspective on the ground on that day the Irish did not deliver. but so what.. in the case of these type of operations the mandate decided in New York, brussels may look good on paper but may not in any way address the complexity of the situation on the ground so the troops will be the fall guys ,, should i open fire, etc etc etc ,,

[Goldie fish]

The UN has apologised to the Irish Defence Forces for the statement.

[luchi]

The UN had to apologise even if they totally agreed with the spokeswoman.

Simple rule of survival ..........................Don't piss off your friends..............................they are few and far between.

[Craghopper]

Chad rebel moves test EU force


A hit-and-run offensive by rebels in Chad has tested the strength and neutrality of a European Union military force deployed to protect refugees in the east of the African state that borders Sudan's Darfur region.

The mobile rebel columns of armed pick-ups have raced through towns and struck at army posts in the eastern borderlands. But they have not attempted to repeat the headlong charge westwards to the capital, Ndjamena, that they made in February.

Analysts see a possible shift in tactics by the insurgents, who have fought for more than two years to try to topple President Idriss Déby Itno. Himself a former rebel, Déby says they are "mercenaries" fighting on behalf of neighbouring Sudan.

The anti-Déby rebel National Alliance briefly occupied at least four small towns over the last week in raids that again stoked tensions between Chad and Sudan. Their long common frontier runs along Sudan's conflict-torn Darfur region and they both accuse each other of supporting armed groups.

But unlike their February assault on Ndjamena, which failed to overthrow Déby, the rebel columns this time harried the Chadian army in the east in an apparent war of attrition.

"The rebels are staging a show of strength and seeking to underline President Déby's weakness and inability to control the whole Chadian territory," Bjoern Seibert, an analyst at Boston's Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy, said.

The rebels accompanied their offensive with announcements of combat successes by spokespersons based in France and Sudan who called foreign media organisations with satellite phones.

"It's a war of Thurayas [satphones], not Kalashnikovs," said Chadian Information Minister Mahamat Hissene. He said the start of the rainy season also hampered the rebel advance.

The rebel push was the first to occur with a European Union military force (Eufor) in position in eastern Chad on a mission to protect nearly half-a-million Sudanese and Chadian refugees and foreign aid workers caring for them.

"One could speculate that the rebels were attempting to test Eufor's reaction to their offensive," said Seibert, who has written a study on the EU military deployment in Chad.

Neutral, but effective?
Even before the Eufor troops arrived in Chad earlier this year, some of the rebels had warned them that if they tried to come between them and Déby's forces, they could face attack.



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[yellowjacket]

Luchi, not for the first time, you ain't got a clue.

[BANDIT]

yellowjacket,
Luchi has a point .. lets not be so defensive.. there have been many instances in the history of peacekeeping, even peace enforcement when troops from a number of nations have been put in situations where for one reason or another they could not protect who they were supposed to protect,, AND i dont know if this was the case here but it could be . It is often not the fault of the individual soldiers.. Srebernica, Rwanda, Leb . The Irish do not have a record of agressive action, their softly softly approach in Leb in the early years was critized by many people , even if they did not have the full facts regarding operational constraints and mandates... This is probably why many of the larger armies do not send tropps on UN operations .. lots of posturing, weapon displays, little determination to be affirmative, and no political backing if they have to use their weapons.
As regards UNHCR and NGOs.. yes they are often naive but UNHCR operates and puts its people in environments that I am sure the Irish Govt would hardly send troops often under constant threat of attacks and intimidation and no batt of troops to call upon, so usually they are not shrinking violets.. so lets have open discussion..

[REX]

Yellowjacket is in a position to know exactly what happened. luchi is not.

I would have to agree. If luchi had read yellowjackets post it is quite clear that while he is being careful about his location, he is very likely wearing a savage tan at the moment!

[luchi]

Yellowjacket is in a position to know exactly what happened. luchi is not.

That maybe true but how many times have critisisms been leveled in the heat of the moment and then when the full extent of what happened is known the critisim is withdrawn?

EUFOR did not run to the aid of the UNHCR compound.
EUFOR troops are mandated to protect, as well as others, the UNHCR personnel.
UNHCR personnel are often operating in "hostile" conditions.
EUFOR are not there in a policing capacity.

Now Yellow Jacket has implied/claimed
UNHCR were warned, chose to continue their mssion and thus ignored the warning. Then when attacked got immediate help. And whinged about it. These people that have been their long before the EU decided to do anything are just prema-donnas and total ingreats. Its that simple.

And yes kermit he may be, from his perspective totally right. It may not be te complex situation that I contemplated with my lack of first hand knowledge. But then again there are usually two sides to every story.

On the other hand the spokesman for the DoD in the papers today claimed that the Irish troops took defensive positions to protect refugee camps in the area.

So maybe YellowJacket can clear some things up.
Did they race to the aid of the UNHCR or were the tied up else where, doing exactly what they were mandated to do?
If the UNHCR personnel at such a high risk why were no troops put on site to protect them or is it a situation of "you simply can't be expected to do every thing"?

[BANDIT]

yes if Yellow Jacket is getting a tan and if things occured as he indicates then UNHCR acted like ass-----. however being in the middle he may not necessarily know all of the story.. But if they acted like Prima donas, regardless of the situation , there is no excuse I would not have been too pleased.. I posted an earlier post about NGOs and their attitudes to security and even security people , it can be very patronising to say the least.

[GoneToTheCanner]

Hi all
NGO staff are regularly accused of crying wolf by their alleged protectors, world-wide, and some of that is justified but many, many NGO staff have spent time staring down the barrels of Kalashnikovs with no means of retaliation. It is a matter of record that NGO staff, UN and others,in classy places such as Sudan, Rwanda, Burundi and Kosovo are routinely threatened, harrassed, robbed and sometimes subject to assault and too often ,death because they are easy targets and because rebels/bandits/uncontrolled soldiers know that they can often get away with attacking aid workers.As for being prima-donnas, well, the DF has no shortage of them and neither has the UN (the opinion of UN field workers towards their colleagues in New York/Geneva has to be heard to be believed!).Also, Yellowjacket has a nice, comfy Steyr close at hand and a whole organisation dedicated to removing him from theatre if something goes wrong, which NGOs don't have, which is why they depend, utterly, on their protectors.
regards
GttC

[gvg]

The evacuation in Goz Beida as reported by the latest version of the Dutch defence newsletter, published by the MoD weekly. (pdf, first page)

Restless weekend in Chad

Goz Beida, Chad - Dutch marines have, together with their Irish colleagues, evacuated 235 employees of relief agencies from Goz Beida on Saturday June 14. It is estimated that about a hundred heavily armed rebels entered the city in the east of Chad and had started looting.
At the UNICEF compound they opened fire on the Irish EUFOR troops, who had turned out from the nearby camp to provide protection. The confrontation lasted only briefly. (Note: on the website of the navy it says "about 1.5 hours".) The rebels then chose to hand over a a few vehicles they had stolen from the relief agencies to the EUFOR troops.
Detachmentcommander, major of the marines Tjarko Leung: "At first, they gestured us that we had to go away from the Unicef compound. When we refused, it apparently changed the situation for them. One of their leaders came to us, gave us a number of carkeys and told us that they wanted no problems with EUFOR. We have brought the employees of the relief agencies to safety and now we have put our focus primarily on the security of a refugee camp which lies just outside the city. "
Dutch marines have been active since a week in Chad. Last week they started their reconnaisance patrols in the vicinity of Goz Beida.

[luchi]

He's not quite in that position.

From his post he is implying he is.
News reports did say the UN satff complained about a lack of drinking water. This I would think is valid but if as YJ says they are/were acting liked proma-donnas then thats just bad manners.

[luchi]

No he isn't.

From the way he has written the post I believed that he was. It looks as Rex got the same idea.
But you are now saying he is not...........or are you?

[pym]

Just to go back over some subjects brought up earlier in this thread;

As regards the problems caused by overland transportation of a lot of the equipment; not a uniquely Irish problem, spare a thought for the yanks in Afghanistan:

KABUL (Reuters) - Four U.S. helicopter engines worth more than $13 million have been stolen while they were being trucked from Afghanistan to a port in Pakistan to be shipped home, the U.S. military said.

Most supplies for the U.S. military in landlocked Afghanistan, including fuel, are transported through Pakistan, and militants in both Pakistan and Afghanistan have been stepping up attacks on shipments.

A U.S. military spokesman said the engines were being transported by a Pakistani trucking company when they went missing some time in the month before April 10.

Full story: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080619/...helicopters_dc and http://www.paktribune.com/news/index.shtml?202023

Also; just briefly as regards water in the camp. I remember reading/hearing a member of the DF out there saying that they would not be sinking wells into the aquifers, because they didn't want to use up a resource belonging to the people of Chad.

Instead, all the water has to be shipped in. So at this early stage of the mission and the fact that the troops have to stick to water rations themselves, it makes perfect sense that there wouldn't be an abundance of water immediately available for when a large influx of people enter the camp.

Maybe it would be an idea to dig a well, but not use it, so as to have it there should a contingency arise.

[luchi]

I said he is in a very good position to know exactly what happened, and you are not. No one said he was in the AOO.

As I said my interpretation of his post was that he had first hand knowledge. Your comments were only second to this. I am not alone in this, what you apear to be pointing out, misinterpretation.