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  • #61
    If the two naval helicopters were dedicated to naval roles only it would have had a better chance. As it was they were being dragged away on everything from SAR to MATS.

    There were advantages to having the Air Corps operate and maintain what was a small fleet of what were at the time some of the most advanced helicopters in the world. They were after all the first helicopters ANYWHERE delivered with a glass EFIS cockpit and FADEC. The Naval versions should have been crewed solely by naval personnel, even under the auspices of Air Corps training, administration and doctrines.

    Why a dedicated Naval Air unit was never formed is a still a matter of mystery. The splitting of assets may not have been desirable to the Air Corps brass but it may actually have made it easier to make a case to the Dept of Finance for an overall increase in fleet numbers.

    Regarding thread split, a separate thread under the rough heading of "The Demise of Naval Aviation" is definitely warranted. Lumping this discussion with one on the current location of ex IAC aircraft does neither subject justice.
    Whether or not this should be discussed in a military heritage and history context or as a a current topic when there is no movement on the horizon for the NS in the manned avaition sphere is a matter for the mods.
    Last edited by Jetjock; 20 February 2013, 10:12.

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    • #62
      If it was a NS unit that operated the 2 Dauphins, it would have been a very small and specialist unit.

      While it may have made the aircraft more available to serve on Eithne (remember the 2nd one was purchased for the 2nd HPV), there would be problems:

      Who would do the currency & ratings checks on the aircrew? AC (who would then have to train on deck landings as well) or a senior NS flying officer

      While NS ground crew could probably do the daily and 50hr inspection. The 400/800/3200 hrs and 8 year inspections would require more personnel and equipment. At least 1 hanger would have been required in Haulbowline as well

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      • #63
        There are already numerous specialised small units within the NS that require currency & ratings checks. These are small obstacles.
        Given that many of the bigger aircraft inspections are being carried out by external companies with some aircraft in the Air Corps already, this too is not a huge obstacle. Space for a hangar had already been allocated. It doesn't require a huge engineering project, given the other construction that took place in the Naval Base at the time.


        Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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        • #64
          The Mauritius Coast Guard ship that the LPV hull design was based on is smaller than the LPVs and has a helicopter flight deck and hanger.
          Check the average sea states in comparrison to those on offer off the west coast of Ireland.

          If it was a NS unit that operated the 2 Dauphins, it would have been a very small and specialist unit.
          And? surely if we have an equitation unit nearly 100 years after the last cavalry charge , sailors could fly helos!

          Who would do the currency & ratings checks on the aircrew? AC (who would then have to train on deck landings as well
          Could as opposed to would, as it is the past, there were those interested within the Navy and indeed some who had experience from their RN days .If the incentives had been appropriate their possibly even been a couple of AC who would have 'jumped ship' so to speak.

          All the conjecture 30 years after the event is wasted as the euphoria around the thing in the Navy and in the Aer Corps was interested, but there were parties whose career paths did not enviage a blue suit or many sunsets at sea and saw their own assets been stripped had it worked, so it wasn't really in their interest.

          Also worthy of note on the Ac side that one of the guys involved in setting up the whole thing was driving BAC 111 s for Ryanair by 1989, and he was driving the bus full of pilots out of the Aer Corps on the day.

          Not only were the aer corps not going to give up shiny helos to jolly jack tar, it couldn't aford to lose more crews. I could name half of Ryanairs pilot list from the time...and their previous Aer Corps appointment....never mind the engineering branch who discovered they might even get paid to do the job in civy street.

          Its deeper than ships and helicopters.

          While NS ground crew could probably do the daily and 50hr inspection. The 400/800/3200 hrs and 8 year inspections would require more personnel and equipment. At least 1 hanger would have been required in Haulbowline as well
          Ever wonder how the Navy keep ships at sea?........they teach people, establish trades and do it themselves, how do they manage beyond this.. direct entries....there was no problem insurmountable other that ship /helo was not a complete navy run project.... never mind the fcukers in Army ordnance who got tied up in the weapons fit after the money was gone!
          Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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          • #65
            Anyway...Back on topic...if anyone has a spare 200k and a can of dayglo orange paint lying about:

            For sale in California http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail/...W/1590877.html

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            • #66
              that worn dayglo...it stayed shiny and new for about six months and then faded, with the result that you had quite a variation in tip tank colours in the line-up. Great aircraft to fly and a hoot to do aeros in. Lotto God, hear my prayers!

              regards
              GttC

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              • #67
                Interesting that they were sold still in their AC markings.

                The dayglo paint technically wasn't even a paint it was a coloured lacquer and its high visibility properties made it light sensitive and prone to fading.Early versions raised some health and safety issues giving reason to red paint being used on some aircraft such as the dauphins as opposed to Dayglo.
                Covid 19 is not over ....it's still very real..Hand Hygiene, Social Distancing and Masks.. keep safe

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                • #68
                  Dayglo seems to have been an IAC favourite down the years when many other air arms had discarded it for other high vis schemes with lower maintenance. A job lot of it must have been obtained on the cheap or fallen off the back off a lorry on the Naas road. As GTTC without maintenance it decays quickly. The questionable scheme in which the first Alouettes arrived quickly became quite shabby looking....



                  Regarding the paint scheme Hpt, I would say removing it would actually hurt their value. Ex IAC aircraft are fairly rare in the warbird community. The only change from the colours in which they flew here is the addition of an undersize(by special warbird dispensation from the FAA) US registration on the vertical stabilizer..


                  Former 226, now N224AP.

                  Gttc, if the Lotto gods ever smile in this direction I'd be happy to do a maintenance/flying hours trade off with you!

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                  • #69
                    Interesting update on ex IAC Vampire 185 at the Musee de Chateau du Savigny. You dont need to be a French speaker to get the basic idea of her story since leaving Baldonnel in a C-160 Transall in 1978.


                    The pictures in this link tell the story. They are dated 1985, 2007 and 2011.

                    http://www.pyperpote.tonsite.biz/lis...pret&Itemid=56

                    Absolutely fantastic to see an ex IAC aircraft stored under cover and looking in relatively good shape.

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                    • #70
                      Isn't there a story about the Allouette's dayglo paint when they were delivered?

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                      • #71
                        Yeah, someone in the Air Corps coloured in with orange felt tip pen the panels they wanted, and wrote the word "Dayglo" next to them. When the finished item was first seen the french expressed their concern that they spent hours trying to get an exact colour match to what was on the drawings provided, and this was the best they could do.


                        Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

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                        • #72
                          Trite but nor true. International Orange, to use it's official name, is the standard colour for training aircraft worldwide and was also applicable to aircraft engaged in SAR, ie, to define clearly to onlookers that the aircraft is not engaged in a warlike role. It didn't persist on the Alouettes because they were used for carrying armed troops on operations, ie, guarding the Border, as well as being used for Type training. Other countries use their trainers as combat aircraft first (officially assigned a war role in a squadron) and trainers (in peacetime) second and don't apply dayglo. It's also the same standard colour for windsocks and SAR/lifesaving equipment. When on aircraft, it should be applied on a white coat of paint to aid reflectivity and durability, which has not always been the case.

                          regards
                          GttC

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                          • #73
                            Gttc,

                            In the above photo of 226 I notice a non flush fairing on the upper empennage above the roundel and attached to the lower vertical stabiliser. What's the reason for it? I see some SF260 with it and some without. It looks like an after thought. Just curious.

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by GoneToTheCanner View Post
                              Trite but nor true. International Orange, to use it's official name, is the standard colour for training aircraft worldwide and was also applicable to aircraft engaged in SAR, ie, to define clearly to onlookers that the aircraft is not engaged in a warlike role. It didn't persist on the Alouettes because they were used for carrying armed troops on operations, ie, guarding the Border, as well as being used for Type training. Other countries use their trainers as combat aircraft first (officially assigned a war role in a squadron) and trainers (in peacetime) second and don't apply dayglo. It's also the same standard colour for windsocks and SAR/lifesaving equipment. When on aircraft, it should be applied on a white coat of paint to aid reflectivity and durability, which has not always been the case.

                              regards
                              GttC
                              Thats not what a view from the tower said.


                              Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Hi all,
                                The French have had Dayglo (which is a trade name for marker pen ink or such like)/International Orange (which is it's genuine name, even on the tins in the paint shop) on their aircraft for years, so painting it on an Alouette would not have been an issue for a company manufacturing hundreds of aircraft annually. Initially, A IIIs were painted Henry Ford style, ie, any colour you like as long as it was grey. Air Corps painting schemes and drawings of same were a bit haphazard for years and it wasn't unusual to find errors across a type. When I worked on the Marchettis, it wasn't unusual to have differing shades of green and mistakes in the stencilling. Panels also got mixed up between aircraft, so it wasn't unusual to find colour errors and have to rejoin the panel to it's original owner.
                                JJ, the bump was either for a remote reading master compass or a flux capacitor for a DI (which may also have been in the wing, I forget). There was also an Army whip aerial fitted thereabouts on the Marchettis. Claudel Hobson will give you exact details.

                                regards
                                GttC

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