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  1. #51
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    The intention is not to put anybody down least of all the DF.
    Bollox.You have done nothing BUT put down the D.F from its choice of rifle in other threads to its choice of operating here.

    However raising concerns and debate and objective evaluation is another issue that in the long run supports the development of the DF. Lack of which allows complacency, self satisfaction and inertia to set in.Otherwise armies would be still be wearing red uniforms and pith helmets.
    I agree with you there but there is a difference between constructive criticism and put downs.

    There is an element of they are so good that they can do no wrong or Irish troops have a way about them that they can always talk themselves out of trouble or we are Irish so are neutral so we will not be harmed, we have no colonial history etc. That in many ways may eb true but is not related to our militay capacity.
    I also agree with that point.However we are WELL able to fight if we need to and the Ranger wing ARE the best trained in the Defence forces.How do you know that in the situation that happened in that village that didnt know the Militia werent already there?They have been gathereing intel for months.How do you know that the small element that entered that village werent sent in to provoke a respons efrom the militia?To force a reaction as it were?Not being agressive as such just forcing their response for better or worse.Now they have made a contact that wasnt htere before.Also tactically they had a stand off cover group armed with everything from sniper rifles to HMG's.Not bad if push comes to shove.Of course how do i know this.I dont,but then again neither does anyone here as we were NOT there.As i said before too much armchair generaling around here!

    = Having said that I have been very proud to hear very good feedback from various sources many of whom were well qualified to compare and judge re our troops in places like Somalia and Liberia,, However troops, units armies cannot rest on their laurels. For the Irish who have not been engaged in combat it is even more important as we do not have the opportunity and the continous challenge to adjust, adapt and devlop from battle experience.
    True ,but as a neutral country that not our fault.We can only send our instructors to train with hose who DO have that experience and bring it back.Which we do,Dont underestimate the irish fighting man though.

    As regards fatalities on such missions , our casualtity in Liberia was from a driving accident and in East Timor from an AD RIP to both of them, .. when there were casualties in the Leb I well remember a public debate on whether our troops should even be there.
    Whats your point? a casualty is a casualty,no matter what causes it.The show will still go.Thats how we honour those who go before us.By carrying on that which they were a part of.

    I am not sure how Joe Public would react to 10-15 cas, coming out of Chad a place that most people could not find on a map.
    Joe public would react the same way he did when Niemba happened and all the deaths since.They would be sympathetic for those who died but proud of them and tha sacrifice they made.But the show would go on.

    Its not a pissing contest and attempting to make it one distracts from the discussion
    Agreed.
    "105,000 dead. 40,000,000 unemployed. Police murdering African-Americans. You’ve completed you’re mission. You’ve made America great. Now get the f**k out."

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  2. #52
    Lt General Barry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apod View Post
    Whats your point? a casualty is a casualty,no matter what causes it.The show will still go.Thats how we honour those who go before us.By carrying on that which they were a part of.

    Joe public would react the same way he did when Niemba happened and all the deaths since.They would be sympathetic for those who died but proud of them and tha sacrifice they made.But the show would go on.
    Eh......no. If 20 lads came back in body bags every tv show and news outlet would be asking the question "What did they die for?" and campaigning to bring the troops home. The Brits and Americans have a hard time justifying casualties in ones and twos from the war on terror, but EUFOR is a rather shaky venture (how many people you stop on the street could tell you what EUFOR's mission is? or even where Chad is?) which could very easily lose public support. This might come as a shock to you, but the government cares a lot more about public opinion than the opinion of the members of the DF.

  3. #53
    Parasigs
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    Smile Ranger Wing SF Pay

    154 Euro weekly is not to be sniffed at. Yes they are on operations in Africa but that also attracts some good allowances. The Irish Army on the whole get paid a significant sum more than, say, UK counterparts whilst on Ops. In relation to the ranger wing and retention than their chain of command should address this at grass roots and speak candidly to the bean counters in the DOD. Suggested solution would be a golden hand shake on completion of skills, and a 2 tier pay band for additional allowances(SF Pay). More experience Op tours etc attracts higher rates.
    Ranger in Chad - you must be busy to be bleeting to the press, stop whining, serve to be professional, money should'nt be a factor mate!!! If you want more money then go run the gautlet in Iraq protecting trucks and civi convoys.....Airborne

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parasigs View Post
    154 Euro weekly is not to be sniffed at. Yes they are on operations in Africa but that also attracts some good allowances. The Irish Army on the whole get paid a significant sum more than, say, UK counterparts whilst on Ops. In relation to the ranger wing and retention than their chain of command should address this at grass roots and speak candidly to the bean counters in the DOD. Suggested solution would be a golden hand shake on completion of skills, and a 2 tier pay band for additional allowances(SF Pay). More experience Op tours etc attracts higher rates.
    Ranger in Chad - you must be busy to be bleeting to the press, stop whining, serve to be professional, money should'nt be a factor mate!!! If you want more money then go run the gautlet in Iraq protecting trucks and civi convoys.....Airborne


    Were talking about the ARW, not Conventional Troops.. Yes We are paid well for Overseas missions, but the fact remains that the ARW do not get Paid on par to International Special Forces for their skill level compared to other SF's.

    154 euros is not to be sniffed at but if your commuting to and from the curragh and some of them do, filling the petrol/diesel tank would take a fair amount of that each week.

  5. #55
    Commander in Chief apod's Avatar
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    Eh......no. If 20 lads came back in body bags every tv show and news outlet would be asking the question "What did they die for?" and campaigning to bring the troops home.
    Mate what country are you living in?Since when did the government here give a damn about what any of us think.Look at the HSE/shannon airport etc etc.


    The Brits and Americans have a hard time justifying casualties in ones and twos from the war on terror,
    They are taking more than that and it still doesnt affect their [policies.

    but EUFOR is a rather shaky venture (how many people you stop on the street could tell you what EUFOR's mission is? or even where Chad is?) which could very easily lose public support. This might come as a shock to you, but the government cares a lot more about public opinion than the opinion of the members of the DF.
    I doubt that what with the public information campaign that the dept have waged discretely for the last few months.The late lates show had its highest viewing figures ever the night the D.F was on.No,no shock.I know what they think of us.Cheap labour to be used and thats it.Maybe thats why people inside are starting to get pissed off.
    "105,000 dead. 40,000,000 unemployed. Police murdering African-Americans. You’ve completed you’re mission. You’ve made America great. Now get the f**k out."

    - Rob Reiner.

    "Yes he's an idiot with zero common sense,and no social skills,but he IS my son.I just hope he never goes into politics.He'd be a disaster.

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  6. #56
    Moderator DeV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irish_Army01 View Post
    154 euros is not to be sniffed at but if your commuting to and from the curragh and some of them do, filling the petrol/diesel tank would take a fair amount of that each week.
    ARW members (ie those in the unit) have to leave within a set distance of DFTC.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeV View Post
    ARW members (ie those in the unit) have to leave within a set distance of DFTC.
    Correct...I can't remember how far/time is allocated ...Don't forget these guys have family cars that still take 50+ euros to fill.. If I was to travel to the curragh from where I live it would cost me approx 60Euros per week on fuel costs alone.
    Last edited by Craghopper; 27th May 2008 at 00:09. Reason: Ammended because of confusion.

  8. #58
    CQMS Exo1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irish_Army01 View Post
    Correct...I can't remember how far/time is allocated but AFAIK I'm within it ...Don't forget these guys have family cars that still take 50+ euros to fill..

    Where I live and the travel to and from work and then the normal driving at home(Shopping etc) it would cost me 60 euro approx per week..


    I hope you understand what I'm saying here..
    Sure do, there should parity of pay and allowances for Irish Rangers against International Sandards, such as the US SF and UK SF communities...
    "There is nothing braver then the heart of a volunteer" Lt. Col. Dolittle, USAC, 1941.

  9. #59
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    Any of you boys read combat survival magazine? has articles from inside chad at the moment,, not a good place to be,,these rebels arent farmers from west cork at all there battle hardened troops,, there walking over chadian forces who are usiing Isreali RAM APCs against 4x4technicals!!!! also the french have eyes in the sky out there,, so why did paddy get surrounded by a force of 200/300 rebels forces??? anyway its a great read get it!!!

    And as a point i agree with the ranger,, we could never pay them enough for what they go through and put on the line,,, them ranger and his family
    Last edited by johnny no stars; 26th May 2008 at 23:40.

  10. #60
    Colonel johnny no stars's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irish_Army01 View Post
    Correct...I can't remember how far/time is allocated but AFAIK I'm within it ...Don't forget these guys have family cars that still take 50+ euros to fill..

    Where I live and the travel to and from work and then the normal driving at home(Shopping etc) it would cost me 60 euro approx per week..


    I hope you understand what I'm saying here..
    And where do you work, oh enlightened one? Or is that what you wanted us to understand....
    Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
    Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
    Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
    Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny no stars View Post
    And where do you work, oh enlightened one? Or is that what you wanted us to understand....
    No, I didn't mean that.. Sorry. What i meant was, if I was to travel to the Curragh every day from where I live it would cost me approx 60+ euros per week on fuel costs alone.

    What I was trying to Convey(not to well I might add:redface was, 154 Euros doesn't really go that far in todays world.
    Last edited by Craghopper; 27th May 2008 at 11:43.

  12. #62
    Lt Colonel Connaught Stranger's Avatar
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    As I understand it, most volunteer for the Wing and understand they will be based in the Curragh area.

    As they all volunteer to join anyway, they must understand that there will be costs, costs that will not be re-immbersed by the State.

    I always believed when the unit was being set up there should have been planning for a "Troop" / "Section" in each of the then Command H.Q. areas, no doubt that would have met with the response of being too costly, and detrimental to training purposes.

    But their was already in most Command areas personnel who had already passed the "Ranger" Courses and wearing the Tab.

    But possibly would have had a lesser impact of the family life, with regards the members, original home locations.

    Thoughts and opinions please.

    Connaught Stranger

  13. #63
    bosun
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    It really is a single young mans part of the df.. the idea of making money in it does not and probably will not come onboard by the government.... what is the rangers motto...too much time to think is causing this to happen and if a person is not happy he should consider leaving it as it will lower moral the officers only stay for a fixed term as well ??? the average overtime pay for 12 hours work in civie street is 200 euros.. so a term in the arw should be a fixed term to improve a soldiers knowledge and let him pass it on to his home unit on return.

  14. #64
    We got VC on the wire ICUN's Avatar
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    €154 a week is f*ck all for the skill level of these guys. They are at the very top of their profession and should be paid as such. If a TD is worth €100k + or whateve l couldnt even guess what an Irish SF soldier in Chad might be worth for the job that is being done and he training it has taken to get to the position they are in.

    For example, I'd say those train drivers (who also work in the public service) who went on strike at the drop of a hat there last week with some bullshit crib get paid a lot more than ARW people for the tough job of sitting driving a train. Plus they can throw the toys out of the pram whenever they want and good luck in the cup to people relying on their service to travel etc. I think train drivers are on over €40k a year, is that right?

  15. #65
    airborne daddy ex pat 007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exo1 View Post
    Sure do, there should parity of pay and allowances for Irish Rangers against International Sandards, such as the US SF and UK SF communities...
    USSF receive 350 dollars per month special duty pay with an additional 150 a month airborne pay. There are other allowances for language , free fall and SCUBA skills but the majority don't receive these.

    154 euro a month is about double in spending power to what most USSF receive.

    What USSF have that is better with regard to benefits is the distinct career path that is the US Special Forces Command. Every member of an A-team is at least an E-6(SSG) with the majority in fact being an E-7(SFC). Once a prospective member passes the Q course he is given a new military occupationally specialty in the 18 series and fast tracked (if not already a SSG or SFC)to the SSG promotion board. Not only is promotion to senior NCO ranks rapid but there is also a warrant officer on every team and prospective warrant officers are found exclusively from within the USSFC ranks.


    Off that topic, there are any number of reasons that those fellas were surprised by the militia. All the planning in the world wont help you if the intel you planned with does not match the real truth of whats on the ground.

    Presumably higher was not aware of a band of 300 or so heavily armed ne'er do wells were in the village. That said, the Rangers emplacing a robust support by fire element (you can be sure the militia knew of it) had more to do with the amicable ending to the story than luck or the pleasant disposition of the indigs.
    When I breeze into that city, people gonna stoop and bow.
    All them women gonna make me, teach 'em what they don't know how

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by riflemangundy View Post
    also the french have eyes in the sky out there
    Chad is 1.284 million sq km. Ireland is 70,280 sq km, thats 18 times bigger.

    Try searching every village in Ireland for 300 guys.

    Now try searching every village in Chad for 300 guys (or 30 or 3,000).

  17. #67
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    Yes I agree with Expat, Maybe having a large amount of firepower outside tipped the balance, ..
    As regards pay and allowances it is felt that the complaints about money may also be indicative of other issues: Morale, bureaucracy, lack of action, red tape, frustration over god knows what. It must be difficult to have to train continuously but have little opportunity to put any of it into action and peace keeping/ even enforcing may be even more frustrating. Similarly in other units in the army train , train and do cash escorts or maybe become a blue helmeted target .. Maybe even the ARW people themselves have not entirely figured it out .
    People join armies, SF, Foreign legion , nursing, teaching etc for reasons other than the money. Career paths , responsibility, wanting to be the best ,to do good, to kill people adventure etc
    Yes, they should be paid for what they do and joining the arw should assist their military career, If money is the reason then people have to weigh up the pros and cons ,, is it worth going to Iraq , being away from family, maybe ( slight chance) of getting killed ,no career path etc, If it is then do the sums and go or stay and using the US or Brits as a comparison may not be entirely honest as they are in action in Iraq , Afghanistan etc , many are leaving and joining pvt contractors but many are staying on as well.
    The DF then have to take this on board and should look at the other issues as well as money do their sums if they want to retain an effective SF .Its all a cost benefit analysis that we as individuals do everyday

  18. #68
    CQMS Exo1's Avatar
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    Some interesting points of view there, but facts are facts, the Irish Army Rangers, are at the top of their profession, the perks and pay should reflect this based on interational standards in the western world, not how much a TD or anybody else who has nothing to do with soldiering gets paid...

    Those guys have my utter respect, and it would be nice for the Govt to have the same opinion and get a project going on ARW allowances and expenses, how it fairs compared against the SAS, US SOCOM Troops, etc, etc... The study would obvoiusly take standards and costs of living into account, etc... They are a small unit with a big res;ponsibility and woe on any regular soldier who moans about them getting special treatment...
    "There is nothing braver then the heart of a volunteer" Lt. Col. Dolittle, USAC, 1941.

  19. #69
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    The rangers would want to get it together. They don't want themsleves identified in the press..all hush hush, sneeky beeky stuff, yet are willing to write to the papers when they're not happy. At the same time they play on the mystique that surrounds them but want to break the silence when it suits them. Sorry, they volunteer for all this stuff. Selection is damn tough, as it should be. Skills cse is no easy time either, and its written down and told to everyone that they have to live within an hour of base. So, through the system make your case (as they have). But when the system respects your anonymity, you have to keep your side of the bargain.

    The incident...meeting rebels in Chad. Me thinks they did damn well. They were on a patrol, outnumbered and obviously surprised. So they talked to these guys. No big deal. This is an impartial peacekeeping force. EUFOR has meet Chadian army forces...so they should meet the rebels. We met HB in Lebanon all the time. Just didn't feel the need to leak it to the press.

    Special forces should get on with their job and keep thier mouths shut. On all fronts.

  20. #70
    CQMS Exo1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by parade boy View Post
    The rangers would want to get it together. They don't want themsleves identified in the press..all hush hush, sneeky beeky stuff, yet are willing to write to the papers when they're not happy. At the same time they play on the mystique that surrounds them but want to break the silence when it suits them. Sorry, they volunteer for all this stuff. Selection is damn tough, as it should be. Skills cse is no easy time either, and its written down and told to everyone that they have to live within an hour of base. So, through the system make your case (as they have). But when the system respects your anonymity, you have to keep your side of the bargain.

    The incident...meeting rebels in Chad. Me thinks they did damn well. They were on a patrol, outnumbered and obviously surprised. So they talked to these guys. No big deal. This is an impartial peacekeeping force. EUFOR has meet Chadian army forces...so they should meet the rebels. We met HB in Lebanon all the time. Just didn't feel the need to leak it to the press.

    Special forces should get on with their job and keep thier mouths shut. On all fronts.
    I understand your point of view, but you need to set it in context to the likes of similiar forces like the British SAS/SBS or US SOCOM (Includes "Delta" "FCCJs" and "Seals" for example) whom have pay and conditions that are suitable after they upgraded them from near enough to Regular Army pay and allowances. The Rangers do the job and should be paid for it.. the fact that one guy writes to the press is no right I agree, but its refective of somebody somewhere not listening.. As for them "keeping their mouth shut".. I think you will find if a British SAS man was here on this board, he would not be shy about telling you he is SAS. I think the guys in the ARW have done an outstanding job on staying below the radar, and surfacing for pay and conditions given the publican of the mission in point through normal channels is unfortunate but understandable...

    I manage people on a daily basis in my job, and I make sure their pay and conditions are comparable to similiar jobs elsewhere... its good management practice to do so, especially when you have "key personnel" to the organisation under your management authority/mandate.
    "There is nothing braver then the heart of a volunteer" Lt. Col. Dolittle, USAC, 1941.

  21. #71
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    I saw a report recently that suggested the letter is a fake, not written by a member of the ARW at all. DF authorities have narrowed down the source to a couple of individuals. None of whom ever served in the ARW.


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  22. #72
    Moderated spudula's Avatar
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    I thought as much.

    I cant see a member of the wing moaning about anything, especially not to the press.

    From wat i've seen of them, their absolute professionals who understand ALL the good and bad points that come with soldiering and Im sure they have worse things to moan about than pay.

    Most probably some disgruntled wannabe or someone that couldnt make the grade.

    As for all the armchair generals that commented on the the story about the rebels, YOU WERENT THERE!!!! so you cant comment!!!!!
    Woo Hoo, finally moderated!!!!! In that select band of people who speak their mind instead of being sheep!

  23. #73
    Tim Horgan Goldie fish's Avatar
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    "you weren't there maaaaaan......."


    Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing.

  24. #74
    Moderated spudula's Avatar
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    thousand yard stare.................................
    Woo Hoo, finally moderated!!!!! In that select band of people who speak their mind instead of being sheep!

  25. #75
    Lord Chief Bottlewasher trellheim's Avatar
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    What rules are being broken ?
    "Are they trying to shoot down the other drone? "

    "No, they're trying to fly the tank"

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